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Paige C. Clark 00:41
Hello, everyone; welcome to another episode of the nine-to-five faith podcast. I am here with one of my new friends Kemir Baker; how are you doing today?

Kemir Baker 00:53
I’m doing pretty well. I’m excited to be here with you.

Paige C. Clark 00:57
I’m so excited. And this has been like months in the making just because of life and schedules and all that stuff. So I’m so happy that we finally get to sit down. We get to have a good conversation, and we get to talk about all the things faith and work and all that good stuff. Yes. So tell us. Yeah, so tell us a little bit about yourself.

Kemir Baker 01:18
Well, my name, as you already said, is Kemir Baker. And about five years ago, I started a nonprofit called J intelligence networks. And for short, we’re J entails because that is a mouthful. And what we do is we provide educational programs, faith-based educational programs for emotional health, and healing, emotional healing as well. And being the founder and CEO. That’s what brought me here today because I can work a lot. And so I’ve learned some things in my own walk with God in terms of just discipline so that I’m making sure that I’m connecting with him in the midst of all that needs to get done. And I will say, as I made that statement, I was like, Well, tell me your story. It’s not that different. You’re a woman. And as a woman, that’s what we do. We get the job done. Yeah. And sometimes, in that process, we kind of overlook ourselves and overlook, digging deeper into our walk with God because we just don’t have time.

Paige C. Clark 02:17
Yeah. So I have so many questions kind of rolling through my head. So the first one is, when setting up your company, how did you it’s kind of, I guess, a little bit easier because it the product is a faith-based product. But how do you in terms of, like, company culture? As we always said, hire and fire to your values. You know, how do you keep Jesus and your Christian values at the forefront of your mind when you’re running your business?

Kemir Baker 02:56
Well, it actually is kind of interesting because there are certain things you’re not supposed to do by law in terms of how much you communicate God and things of that nature. And so, for myself, I realized that a lot of what we represent, we have to walk it. We can’t just say, Oh, we represent God in a new and fresh light. Like we have to make sure that we’re treating people with love, dignity, and respect. And those attributes when it comes out of how people at times don’t have that experience. They may have experiences where their bosses are over them; they’re being micromanaged. They’re not being built up. And so when we can come and present those practices, they know right away that we’re different, and they feel so like excited until then they just work harder because they feel believed in. Yeah, yeah. And so that’s been exciting to see because I’m reformed, my character was me, St. Jesus, if I didn’t put them in a saint, I do not believe the day to make that adjustment, and because not everyone can receive Christ in that way where it’s just in their face. And so, I had to learn how to adjust my presentation of him. So that he is not only still being seen but approachable.

Paige C. Clark 04:21
Seen but approachable. I am actually working on some writing right now. And I have, like, normal but sacred. And I feel like what you just said like seems but approachable is like the same exact like kind of falls into the same dichotomy of the two because yeah, like I think, I think that there’s this holiness, right, the reverence that we should have for God, but also like, Jesus for everyone who accepts Him.

Kemir Baker 04:51
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. We know in our journey, there were times when we weren’t ready to Hear him and wanted to draw closer to Him. And so then it becomes who are we to be the complete opposite when he met us where we were at, and was able to have that conversation with us and slowly bring us to that place where we’re like, Ditka left?

Paige C. Clark 05:19
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think to like that. Not only not that it waters down the gospel, but it helps people understand, like, kind of the context of Jesus and like how he works. I know it sounds really vague, but I’m thinking of, like, the chosen series, right? Like, I know, there’s like a lot of, like, the internal controversy of, like, the legitimacy of it. And I think like, you know, you can argue, you know, theology every day with it, that’s fine. You know, that’s not what I do. More power to those people who do. But I think that what it has done in a really great way is it has shown both the humanity and holiness of Jesus, which is a really beautiful thing to see.

Kemir Baker 06:18
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And when I watched the chosen, I saw a couple of episodes. Because what they do is fill in the gaps of the possibility of what that culture was like. What could have been? And when I watched it, I was like, I never thought about it that way. I never thought about Matthew doing X, Y, and Z and someone being exiled from their family. I was like, I, I never promised that because when you read it, you read it so quickly, sometimes, right? They’ll slow down and say, Well, wait a minute, how did that decision impact other people around them? I feel like the chosen does a good job of showing what that impact looks like.

Paige C. Clark 06:58
Yeah, there’s a book that I like to read. It’s called What if it’s true? And have you read it?

Kemir Baker 07:04
I haven’t, but it sounds enticing. Oh,

Paige C. Clark 07:06
it’s so good. But it’s this guy who usually writes fiction. And it’s all it’s half memoir, half, half, like, historical nonfiction, but, but it’s like, what he does is he applies his skills as a fiction writer on top of the Bible, and like the stories of Jesus. And so he does it in book form. The same thing that I see done in the chosen is like adding a lot of context to two different stories like, you know, the birth of Jesus while like, we just know, like, hey, Mary didn’t have room at the end. So she gave birth in a staple. Well, he adds context around him, like, it’s freezing cold. Mary is in pain like there are animals pooping right next to her, like, in a barn. Yes. So he just adds, like, a different context to it. So yeah, those things like that. I always recommend those to people because as a good starting point, especially when they’re getting to know the Bible.

Kemir Baker 08:19
Yeah, that totally makes sense because it hits your heart in a different way.

Paige C. Clark 08:22
Mm-hmm. I think we’re able to see it. Mm-hmm. We’re just able to see it in a way that makes more sense if there’s a little tidbit about reading the Bible. So in what ways have you used your faith to kind of develop the policies around your work? So like, whether it is, you know, respecting the Sabbath? Or, you know, how you even pay your employees or dig into that for me?

Kemir Baker 09:05
Yeah, I think for me, our philosophy is integrity. That’s one of our pillars is integrity and showing God in a fresh light. And so, there have been many times we’re, you know, the flesh will come in, and you want to cut corners, and you want to not pay someone as much because you don’t have very much money. But after a while, you’re like, Okay, you know, that makes no sense. This person has worked really hard. They’ve demonstrated their value to us. Why do I want to cut something that they need? And so, those things are, I think, bring me back from the flesh like okay, well, God meets our needs if we give abundantly, and I will say that he does. And so that was something that I continue to learn, especially in the first couple years when we’re starting, just in terms of not being so tight-fisted with finances, being responsible, but allowing God to breathe through them and in the process impact people around. And again, as I said before, we really do work on us being a light. And you know, when they come in, they read our mission; they know what we’re about. And so that does add another layer of, okay, well, how are you going to engage with me if I know?

Paige C. Clark 10:34
this is represented? Right?

Kemir Baker 10:37
Yeah. And we know sometimes Christians get it bad. Because if you make one mistake, all Christians are terrible. Yeah. And so it does put us at a higher standard than most individuals, most companies because of that,

Paige C. Clark 10:51
yeah, I have been able to work for some Christian companies. And they, they like to say, you know, Christian companies should be the best-run businesses because they have that integrity level. But also, I think, in the way that I mean, business ethics even right, like you can go into down that rabbit hole if you want to have like, how you run your business is in an ethical way. And also, when it comes to things like, you know, acting against your mission or against your values, you know, we’re all human, that’s going to happen, but I think the response is so significantly different. And that’s what sets Christians apart from, you know, other people.

Kemir Baker 11:43
Yeah. Because I’ve learned generally, let me learn my lesson. So I don’t have to keep learning the same lesson. Yeah. And the guy will place you back in a circumstance to continue to purify. Yeah, I’m like, Well, let me get that the first time. My life a little bit easier, Hank, the pain away. In and then, after you’re done with the frustration, and you really ponder over, you’re like, wait a minute, this was self-induced because I knew better. But this was the route that I took. So I can’t get mad at God. I need to take responsibility for my actions.

Paige C. Clark 12:21
And then, one thing God has been teaching me, I’ve just started, like my own garden, in my backyard. And one thing that he really has been teaching me is what you were saying earlier about him providing. And one thing that I’m learning is, He will give you just enough. I feel like you have a story about that. And I want to hear it.

Kemir Baker 12:49
Yeah. I mean, you want abundance? Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that we were because nonprofits, of course, apply for grants. And, there was one grant that I applied for, and I was like, I put in for the max. I can’t wait because these are all the things that we need to get through. And I think that what we were awarded was a fraction. I think it was 1% of the request. And, I was like, okay, but on the flip side, that organization receives so many requests. Because there are not a lot of loopholes that you have to go through. And so then once you start thinking, I was like, wait a minute, we actually did really well to get a response. Yeah, we did well to get a response that quickly. And even though it was 1%, it could have been nothing. Right? And we used it, of course, but what a great they have gotten the abundance. Right. And so it is all God’s telling.

Paige C. Clark 14:01
me. Yeah. And I think just his provision, you know, I just think about one. I mean, it’s one of my favorite stories because, I mean, all the Bible stories where I’m like, I wouldn’t do that. And I’m like, Yeah, you would like that would definitely be you. But you know, when when the Israelites are in the desert, and God provides them with manna, and he says, don’t keep it like you have to trust me that we’re going to still provide and, you know, those who kept it, it went rotten and spoiled within you know, within a day, and it didn’t last and so just that that absolution of like God giving us just what we need when we need it. Yeah, when we ask.

Kemir Baker 14:51
Yes. And he’s right on time. God. Yeah, he’s not up before. No, you know, I’ll be less anxious if you want to do it before.

Paige C. Clark 15:06
Yes, that too. And also do not worry. There’s also that element, and that’s, that’s been I liked. This takes me all the way back to like my childhood when we would like to sing the verse thy lamp is a guide to my feet and a light into my path, or I’m butchering right now, but I heard a sermon one time, and it was like, it’s a lamp. It’s not a floodlight. It’s not the sunshine; it is a lamp. How far ahead can you see with a lamp? Not very far. Right? God gives you a lamp for it. He shows you what is right in front of you, not down the line. Right. I always like that, because I’m gonna has to like it as much as we hate it. But I mean, the ability that we have to surrender that to God, it’s, you know, our wanting to cling to it is just our attempt at control.

Kemir Baker 16:13
Yeah, it’s our version of security.

Paige C. Clark 16:16
Yeah. Really, our security should just be in Jesus.

Kemir Baker 16:19
Yeah. And that’s what he says. And that’s why there’s a castle wrestle. Yeah, yeah, that tension there.

Paige C. Clark 16:26
So tell me a little bit about you’re developing faith-based products. Obviously, you know, you are living out those principles in your work. But what I hear from a lot of my friends who have worked in ministry is that it can become a little bit, I guess, numbing, huh, in essence, so like, for example, so I don’t correct me if this is a poor example. But like you’re writing a curriculum, and you’re spending time in the Word writing this curriculum based on what you said, you just count that as your time spent with Jesus.

Kemir Baker 17:12
Oh, yeah, that doesn’t work for me.

Paige C. Clark 17:15
I don’t think it works for anyone.

Kemir Baker 17:18
Yeah, I learned the hard way; like God, he interrupts me like he is very devoted to us having time together. And so if I’m not putting my time in with him, I start going crazy. I’m just like, emotionally, I’m all over the place. My faith is all over the place. And even when I’m home with my family, because there are so many different levels of responsibility when you’re in your family, and you’d have less time because there are so many needs, that, you know, that’s the temptation to Okay, I’m gonna meet those needs. And then I’ll do God later, and then later becomes, you know, the next day, and then the very next day, and then it keeps going. And, but when I’m in that phase, that stage, I’m not right. I’m more hostile towards people. I’m short-tempered, I, everything is about me, it’s about me, my needs because I’m not looking through the lens of him. And I’m not being strengthened by him. And so that was something he taught me in the beginning for the nonprofit. And it’s been great because it spared me from more hurt because he is very deliberate in wanting to spend time with me. And now I can take pride in that, in the sense of, wow, you don’t need that much. Do you want this much time? You got all these other things, you’re gonna be no, and you got all these other people who want all this chaos with your debt delivery and wanted time with me. Okay, who am I to turn down the creative world?

Paige C. Clark 18:58
That’s beautiful. I have never considered that before. Hmm. I like he gets to spend time with us. And he chooses to spend time with us.

Kemir Baker 19:10
Yeah. And very deliberate with it. And yeah, and so loving and so kind. And for me, he had to transform or change my perspective to be able to see the loving-kindness because of the previous messages that I had ingrained in terms of you got to be xy and z, even to approach your stuff got to be perfect, right? And that’s not his character. That’s not his perspective. And so once I was able to remove that, that faulty lens, that foggy lens, and put that lens of through, you know, he says all time in His Word, and actually start believing that yes, I’m wonderfully formed. Yes, you know, I will do anything. The Impossible, like, are you good? Givengiving me these things in once that start being implanted or implanted in my spirit? Then it became, Oh, wow, why would I want to spend time with you? Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 20:14
One thing that I am learning to I’m going through this book on prayer, and it was, it was like, do you go to God about everything in prayer? Yeah, everything like, and that asked me a really hard question of like, am I even diluting my prayers, like you were saying earlier of like, Oh, you have to have everything all perfect, in order to approach God. And it’s like, no, am I going to Him about everything? Because he already knows, like, who am I kidding? Like, he already knows my thoughts. And, like, Why do I think he’s so far removed from me that I don’t need to be going to him about this stuff?

Kemir Baker 20:59
Yeah. And God just challenged me recently in that I was praying, crying, and praying as I do at times. Because of my own stuff. What happened? But when I was praying, it was so clear that gentle whisper was, you’re not asking. Am I? Oh, can’t you? You already know, like, Are you kidding? Me? No, my tires. He is insulted to hear that boys have, even though he knows he still wants us to ask. Yeah. And it’s so hard to get in that mindset sometimes because we could go on autopilot. But yeah, I got this to-do list. Today, I got ten items; I’m just gonna rush through it. And then, for me, sometimes doing that without putting him first, I still feel so unfulfilled. And or I feel more anxious. I’m so anxious because there’s so much that needs to get done. And then it’s like, but what would it be like if I went to him in the morning and said, God got my day? What would that ten list look like? I’m pretty sure it will change. And so recently, I started to say, Okay, God helped me to guide my day and give me the things that are going to be the most impactful for that. Yeah, because there’s so much to get done. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 22:29
They’re all buzzes. Yeah.

Kemir Baker 22:31
And I was telling my mom the other day; I was like, I feel like a little hamster on the wheel just going and going and going. But I don’t have anything to show for it. In my mindset, right, right.

Paige C. Clark 22:42
I was telling my husband the other day I, like, was on a rollout, like with my personal work. And I was working, and I was working. And I walked it out into the kitchen, and the sweet thing made dinner for me and all that stuff. And I walked out, I’m like, Okay, I’m finally finished with work. I’m like; I’m at a stopping point where I’m not finished with it by any means. But I’m at a place where I can stop for the day. So you know, yes, there’s always something to do. So how do you check yourself? When it comes to, like, especially running your own business? Like, doing just like a self-inventory of, like, one, you’re the person in charge. So like, the line stops with you? Also, like, there’s always going to be something to do. Exactly.

Kemir Baker 23:35
And I will say that has been my journey for years, learning to rest in Him. And so we’re always having that conversation. Here we go, sit down. Let me get things done. Yeah. And in April, I ended up getting sick. And I thought that I had COVID. And I thought I had pneumonia. We have some respiratory bugs, and they just took me out. And for two weeks, as I was sick, there were things I just couldn’t do because I wasn’t feeling well. But that’s when I saw God doing things with the nonprofit like doors just start opening up. And I was like, oh, so basically you tell me I mean your way. So you had to set me back. So you can start opening up the doors because my innate nature is to work. He tells me all the time you can’t work your miracle. And so so, how do I check myself? I got sick. I try not to get to the next stream. But sometimes, because I get so fixated, you know God will provide interruptions to kind of get me back on track. Yeah, sometimes I’m in tune enough that I can stop myself. But it depends on what my priorities are at that time. So yeah,

Paige C. Clark 24:57
I can definitely understand that because I am surrounded by people who do not call you stubborn but might be a little bit stubborn about God’s lessons. And like, you have to, like, be bed down for two weeks in order for you to, like, completely understand it. And just like watching God move. Yeah. Me and my husband just went through something similar where I’m like, oh my god, I just wanted to tell you, like you learn lessons the hard way, like, learn lessons. So this is where we’re at. Like,

Kemir Baker 25:33
yeah, yeah. Because even while I was sick initially, I thought I just had a cold. So I prepared to be out for five days, but it just kept going. And so it’s like, are you listening in? Let me know.

Paige C. Clark 25:53
Right, right, exactly. And I always think to, like, I’m actually, ironically enough, I’m doing a series about rest right now. And, like, the different types of rest. Yeah, and like, I think I mean, I didn’t realize this up until maybe a few years ago, but like, there are different types of rest, and we need to be providing rest for our whole selves. Yeah. And, you know, we just think rest is like binge-watching Netflix and sleeping until noon, like cool. But really, like, that will only maybe fix, you know, physical and mental rest. But what if your rest needs to be social or emotional, or spiritual? Like, which rest do you need? And, if you’re feeling drained after your rest, you’re probably not getting the right type.

Kemir Baker 26:46
Oh, yeah, for sure. And even for me, where my lesson comes in most is sleep rest. Because of the to-do list, I gotta get this done. And someone reminded me that when you’re not sleeping, you’re not giving your body the opportunity to recover. Yeah. And you don’t make up that time. Like your body never fully recovers what you deprived it of. Yeah. Because you will think, Okay, well, Saturday, I’ll just sleep in. And that submit the like, you still didn’t get what your body needs to fully function. And then another thing that a friend really encouraged me with and wanted me to have the visual is that when you’re sleeping, that is working. So why not take a break? And keep working? Yeah, it’s thinking that it’s all on me. It’s like, Oh,

Paige C. Clark 27:43
yeah. Yeah. And I heard something said about the Sabbath. And the same, in the same regard, is like, do you think you’re so like, as a gut check of like, do you think you’re so important that the world is going to stop if you’re not in it for a day? Like, that’s, like, that’s not the truth, like ego check. Like, you know, the world can exist without you for a day. So take it off because God told us to.

Kemir Baker 28:10
Yeah, for sure. And yet, we’re having this conversation because it’s so challenging to do it.

Paige C. Clark 28:15
Yes. Yes, exactly. It is tough to do it. And then also, I think it’s really fun. I mean, I love when, like, science is like scratching its head at like mysteries that God created. And sleep is one of them. You know, I have done a lot of research into sleep. And there are people who do it professionally. And they’re like, why do we need like this? Like, why are our bodies hardwired for this chunk of time? You know, I think it’s like a third of your life spent asleep. Like why have our bodies evolved to that point? When really I’m like, I think there’s like a divine reason for I don’t have an answer for it. But I think there’s a divine reason that God created us to need sleep. Yeah. And we just like don’t know, or at least science doesn’t know it.

Kemir Baker 29:08
Sure. Yeah. They’ll give you some ideas. Of course.

Paige C. Clark 29:13
Yeah. Yeah. And they’ll tell you what happens if you don’t sleep. Like, there are a lot of things that happen when you don’t sleep, but the stuff, especially around dreams and your brain and like, like why the why we don’t what the why we need sleep is only in the side effects and the symptoms of not sleeping. It’s not in the actual, like, the core of why we actually need sleep as a human right. Yes, that’s mine aside. I’m like looking at my book right now, and I let just video about it. It’s called Why We Sleep. Yeah, I mean, it’s all. It’s all the stuff.

Kemir Baker 30:04
I’m like, one of the things that’s so clear is that you like to learn. Oh, yeah,

Paige C. Clark 30:09
I mean, this bookshelf and then also the other day, I, like, have a mini meltdown. Because we moved in here, like, a year and a half ago, and like, there are still boxes in closets like, that’s real life. And I was looking for a specific book, and I couldn’t find it anywhere. And just like this one book, I haven’t picked up in years. I couldn’t find it anywhere. I’m like, where’s this book running around my house? So yeah, definitely a bookworm or reader learner. Alright, let’s kind of bring it back, bring it around. You’ve kind of hinted at it. But I want you to go a little bit more in-depth about what kind of your day looks like when it comes to rising and being with God. And then, like, family? Do you have kids? I don’t have kids. So I

Kemir Baker 31:05
don’t have children with Okay.

Paige C. Clark 31:06
Okay. Are you? Are you married?

Kemir Baker 31:08
I’m not married. Okay,

Paige C. Clark 31:10
so you are taking care of yourself. And

Kemir Baker 31:13
like, so have the least amount of distractions.

Paige C. Clark 31:17
But also, like, I think it’s a little bit easier to, like, get away with not doing stuff when you’re like, not alone. Correct me if I’m wrong, but

Kemir Baker 31:28
you have, I think, in general, you have to be deliberate. Yeah. And that was one of the things why I like Paul because no matter what, he was very deliberate, and everything that he did. But for me, in terms of my morning routine, which I know those who are married and have children, this is probably not possible for them because of RAM and commitment. But for myself, about two years ago, we were reading a book together as part of our church fellowship. And one of the things they talked about was, as soon as you wake up in the morning, drop to your knees and pray, even before you go to rest. So for the past few years, that’s been my routine, I get up, and I drop into that fray. And it’s just five minutes. It’s not my full prayer because I still do have to go to the restroom.

Paige C. Clark 32:17
Yes, and you need a coffee. If you drink coffee or tea. Yeah, yeah, I

Kemir Baker 32:21
wake up. But that has been really insightful because I’m acknowledging him. And I’m, you know, because you think we might have received text or quotes about having God first thing in the morning? Well, I can, I can say, Yes, I do. Yeah. And then, after that, the restroom break, I have the privilege of being able to sit in and study God’s Word. And so my quiet times are usually about 30 to 45 minutes, and I just dig and allow him to speak into me. But I will say I get in trouble at times because I will break that to do email or internet stuff. So I can post things about the organization. And then, of course, when I do that, I’m so disgusted at myself, like, you know, they’re supposed to yield to him. A guy needs to structure to come in a while going on social media first, right? And so it still is a level of discipline. Yeah. Because if it’s not, in the sense of me making an effort, I will make an effort to do something else. And it happens very quickly and easily. And so, but when I’m at home with my family, I don’t have that luxury; I don’t have the luxury of having this quiet space for 30 to 45 minutes. I don’t have the luxury to get up the big in prayer on my knees first thing in the morning. And so when I’m in that context when things are, you have a family to take care of. I have to make sure that I’m praying throughout the day, I have to make sure that I find, you know, 510 15 minutes where I can read a song and be refreshed in my spirit, where I’m able to just find that that little time, that nugget for me so that God can calm my spirit. And so it took me a moment because I felt guilty. I’m like, oh, normally you’re like at three, five minutes. And now this is like 10. Yeah. And so I had to learn how to be creative and seek him throughout the day, and even repeating scriptures throughout the day, so that I’m still being reminded of his work or even if I’m doing a chore or if I have to drive somewhere where I put something on immediately that’s sharing about him just to reconnect my spirit. Yeah, because living is there, and it’s legit. And it just happens. And, for those mothers who have small kids, it’s like it’s nearly impossible even go to the restroom there to door,

Paige C. Clark 35:16
right? Just go to the bathroom.

Kemir Baker 35:21
Has anybody tried to lie to him? Totally. You’re like, Oh my goodness. And so so you have to be more creative to have that union with Him. Yeah. But I knew that if I was not deliberate in that level of distraction or family environment, then at some point, it would come out. So don’t be like me. Are you being really short to me? Yes, you are. Or, like I said before, just thinking about me, well, you did this wrong and right. And it’s because I haven’t had that time with him. And so when I, when someone checks me from my character, shortness, then I know, girl, you need to go spend your time go outside, walk around the house, even if it’s for five minutes, cry out to do something where you communion with Him?

Paige C. Clark 36:22
Yeah. And I think too, like, you haven’t touched on something that I haven’t considered before of like that guilt of, like, not spending enough time with God. At that, like when you have that guilt, or just, I guess, maybe that conviction, right? It’s making it about you, too. Right. Like, yeah, like, it’s like, I feel bad because I’m, I didn’t do this. But then, like, you know, we’re able to, I think if we reframe that into, like, what you were saying earlier is like, God wants to be spending this time with us.

Kemir Baker 37:03
Yeah. Yeah. And because even if you don’t reframe it, and you stay in that mindset, what happens is you feel so guilty, and it just keeps continuing to the point that you just give up altogether. Yeah. Because now you just feel so poorly about yourself, and then it reflects and other things that you do throughout the day. And so, I definitely go down that path many times, and I had to reevaluate and seek deliverance even if I think about him in a given moment. Oh, that’s actually really good. Because we can go on autopilot and, you know, just do all those things. But even if we allow ourselves to pause in our day and think about him, and even say in that thought, that I just love you. Yeah. Why wouldn’t he want to hear that? Yeah, my mother loves me. Okay. Yeah. Pausing is just telling me that she loves me today.

Paige C. Clark 38:12
Yeah, for sure. When you mentioned it, it was on the bathroom door. It just took me back to this funny video that I wish I could share. But it’s my nephew. And my brother-in-law is in the shower. And my nephew is literally on the floor looking underneath the doorframe. Dad Ha, like he’s like a one-and-a-half Dadda Dadda. You’re talking back and forth. And my sister took a video of it. I was just like, that’s so funny because it is like really true. Like, I don’t have kids either. But yeah, it is true that they are literally in the bathroom.

Kemir Baker 38:54
Looking for you? Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 38:56
I think one thing to have, like, that just sticks out to me is just doing that little bit. I fall into that trap, especially when it comes to like working out the days where I’m like, I got nothing, like I have nothing in the tank. And I just go, okay, just go try to do as much as you can in the gym. And then that’s going to be enough for today. And whatever I ended up doing or when I’m actually working out, if I’m like, I am just, and I can’t continue any longer. I’ll look okay; I got 15 minutes, and 15 minutes is better than nothing.

Kemir Baker 39:35
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And then, for those who don’t have those distractions and do have the opportunity to invest in that time, I’ve learned from myself that I’m better equipped to meet my challenges. If I spend that time with God in the morning, so that he’s guiding me throughout the day, because there was one period where I was like, I’ll do that. And then what happens at nighttime you are tired? You can’t really grab hold of anything. And you don’t have anything to refer to. Yeah. Because the day is over in terms of pulling you out of circumstances, right? Yeah. And so after Bible time, I go exercise. And then after that, I start working.

Paige C. Clark 40:21
Yeah. And then the grind starts. The other thing, too that that stood out to me is the discipline in, in all of these conversations I’m having, especially on this podcast; I realize that there is, I mean, an intended or unintended kind of stereotype that Christians don’t have to be disciplined in their faith, or like, they don’t have to schedule out their faith. Almost every person I write to, every person I’ve talked to, almost every person I’ve talked to on this podcast, has talked about how they schedule out time and they are disciplined in their time with God. And I think that I don’t want to normalize that and normalize the; it’s okay if it doesn’t feel natural. If it doesn’t naturally come about, it’s okay if it doesn’t because guess what? That’s just the world that you’re living in right now.

Kemir Baker 41:29
Yeah. And then I think a lot of that stems from God being invisible. If he was in a physical representation, and you had access to him physically throughout the day, it wouldn’t be any different than your people relationships, where you have been married, like you want to spend, sometimes you want to spend time because sometimes you need a break from

Paige C. Clark 41:55
you also the time I want to spend time with him, yes. All

Kemir Baker 41:57
right. But you stay together because there are things that you really appreciate about him, and he brings things into your life. And so you have something tangible and physical to draw you back to him. And if he wasn’t physically there, after a while, you would miss him. And you will feel like something is missing in your life. And so because God is invisible, we don’t have that physical connection, that physical reminder that physical, like, I will do anything for you. And so that’s why it comes to okay; it requires discipline because I’m having this relationship with someone that I can’t physically see. Even though, at times, you will basically have his awareness and how he’s orchestrating things in your life. And then you get even more excited because you’re like, hey, is there love, right? Without those little kisses, as I call them? We can be oblivious. Oh, yeah, gosh, I love that. We can be oblivious to him working behind the scenes. Yeah. And I

Paige C. Clark 43:11
think too, oh my god, like, I’m a little choked up because that was so beautiful. Just little gods, little kisses. I think when we look at other religions or ways of thought, what we see is that attempt to grasp the physical. Yeah, you know, you think of like, even like having statues, and even in Christian history, right? Like, there was like this whole, you know, uproar if, like, Jesus should be in a picture or not, right? Like, there was the whole controversy around that. But when you look at a lot of other religions, a lot of them either if there’s like, a city that they’re supposed to go to, because it’s extra sacred, or that’s how they can access God or even like having a statue or some kind of idol or, or what have you even like if I’m gonna make some people mad about this. But, like, with the New Age stuff, you have like crystals, and you have, you know, things like that in the world where people are just like, trying to grasp onto something. And I think that’s like a really good point is like, we’re just, I think a lot of them are trying to make sense of the world that God has given us. Yeah,

Kemir Baker 44:35
yet, because we need something visual to connect with. Yeah, he does answer for that. Because we know that people got in trouble with the idols, and he was like, Hey, that’s not me. And his answer was if you want to remember me, just write my Word everywhere in the house. Yeah. Because, like, that’s how you remember me because there’s truth in that Word, and as you hold on to that truth, you’re actually holding on To me,

Paige C. Clark 45:01
yeah. And also, like, communion and taking in, you know, the bread and the cup like that. Do this in remembrance of me, like, right? That’s how. And I think too, like one thing that I’ve really been leaning into, I’d say like, over the past few months, is really looking at not artwork that I idolize, but more so like artwork and things of beauty and things of creativity, that just reminds me of God. Yeah. Yeah. And then when I’m in my space, I’m able to look at that and be like, oh, like, that’s, that’s God’s presence in my life, not not the actual thing. But it is the reminder; it’s like a post-it note, the post-it notes, not the actual thing that you have to do. It’s a reminder of the thing you have to do.

Kemir Baker 45:55
It would be great if posted could actually do the work.

Paige C. Clark 45:58
Right? I feel like that’s like a that’s gonna be like coming down the Word like, ai company. Oh, my gosh, I’m gonna give you a sneak peek. I’m like; I was just working on this social post before. We had this. And I was on a call with this group that I’m a part of called the writer’s block. And the gal who’s speaking this week said AI is not the Imago Dei. How’s it? Oh, yes, like full-body chills in the best way. Like, AI is not the Mako day in so much. So like, we’re talking about writing, and you know, AI is gonna take our jobs and everything. But it was like no, like, we are made in the image of God. And when we write, we’re able to reflect that too. For sure. Yeah. All the beautiful things. Well, cashmere, this conversation has been so good. And I like, I can’t wait to like to look back over the transcript of this and just like write down all the little things like gods kisses, I’m, I’m saving that one that you know, that’s gonna go on my whiteboard next to me. But one question I always like to end with is, what is a tangible faith discipline that someone can enact in their life this week to help grow their faith?

Kemir Baker 47:21
Yes, in so I chuckled, because living by myself, it’s easy for me to talk to myself. They say you don’t do it. We all know to do it. Oh, everyone does. Yeah. And so, in this context, instead of being told you can’t do it, just talk to God throughout the day. And as I shared earlier, even in that five minutes, or that one, or that 32nd 10 seconds, just even say, God, I love you today. And as you do that, allow yourself to connect to His Spirit so that as you continue throughout the rest of your day, you’re not just on autopilot; there’s an awareness that he’s with you. And there’s an awareness that you are drawing close to him, even when the chaos is not possible of that.

Paige C. Clark 48:13
I’m not going to add anything else; we’re going to end on that. Thank you so much for coming here; where can people find you if they want to connect with you if they want to see the curriculum that you’re putting out there? Tell us all the things.

Kemir Baker 48:27
Yes. So even though the name of the company is really long, we are known as J Intel. So if you go to our website, jintl.org, You can learn more about myself, our story, and how we came about the services that we offer. And we also have on there just articles to continue on the terms of your emotional wellness and just learning and gaining insight. And then, of course, we’re on Facebook. So on Facebook, where j entailed that

Paige C. Clark 48:58
here we go. There we go. And I’ll also add it in the show notes so people can find it with complete ease because

Kemir Baker 49:06
create new names.

Paige C. Clark 49:07
Yes. Thank you so much for joining me, and we’ll catch you guys next week on the pod. Have a good one. Bye.

Paige C. Clark 00:41
Hello, hello, everyone. I am here with one of my new friends Gina Anderson. And I am so excited to have her on the podcast and talk about her life and her work and how that points us closer to God. How are you doing today? Gina?

Gena Anderson 00:59
I’m fantastic. It’s Friday, as we’re recording this. So Friday afternoon, so I think I’m doing pretty well. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 01:06
And you like to work a regular work week where it’s like five days on and two days off?

Gena Anderson 01:13
Yes, for the most part, I actually work four days four.

Paige C. Clark 01:17
days. Okay. Oh, I wish I could do 410s. Is that amazing?

Gena Anderson 01:23
It is the days are long when you’re working. But having the extra day off during the week. I’m sure you’re going to. You’re gonna ask me questions about this is awesome.

Paige C. Clark 01:32
Yeah, yeah. So tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do? How can I get to work for 10s?

Gena Anderson 01:43
Well, as far as working for 10s, that was just something that I wasn’t doing until a year ago; I was working five days a week. And then that was something that they just offered and said my company said, Hey, you could work for TINs if you want to. And I said I absolutely want to thank you very much. So that’s how that happened. But I would say absolutely or see. Yeah. But I live in Central Texas outside of Austin. And in a small town called Hutto, that’s not so small anymore growing. And so I am married, and I have two kids. One is 15. And the other is 11. We have two dogs. And right now it is very hot here. And it tends to stay that way all summer long. And so I professionally what I do; I’m a family nurse practitioner, and I specialize in weight management. And so I do that full time. And additionally, I’m a Christian author and writer. And so I do a lot of that kind of thing. And then, as a mom, doing all of the shuttling the children around in this phase of life that we’re in. And personally, the things that I really like to do besides writing and reading and hanging out with my family, and working because I do love what I do. I think it’s one of the greatest privileges of my life to be a nurse and now a nurse practitioner for the last five years or so. But additionally, I love to be active and exercise and go for hikes and work in my yard and be outside in nature. I love traveling with my family, and I do that as often as we can. And I love cheesecake and red wine. I love that. That’s kind of me.

Paige C. Clark 03:25
I love that I actually have. I think on my website, I have. I love iced tea and dark chocolate.

Gena Anderson 03:30
I would take both of those also.

Paige C. Clark 03:35
She’s kicking red wine. I just feel like it’s people who are like, Oh, what’s your favorite food and like, you can just like go to it. But it’s like when it’s part of you. It’s part of you, and you totally understand it.

Gena Anderson 03:46
Yeah, but yeah, coffee. Also, I don’t know how I would live without coffee.

Paige C. Clark 03:51
That’s, that’s amazing. Thank you for sharing that. So how long have you been doing nursing?

Gena Anderson 03:59
So for 19 years, I think this year in December would be 20 years. That’s my 20-year nurse adversary. So a little bit

Paige C. Clark 04:09
a little while. Well, just a short bit. And how long have you been with the current company that you’re currently with?

Gena Anderson 04:18
For years a little over?

Paige C. Clark 04:19
Wow, that’s awesome to that. I feel like we’re we live in a generation where people just kind of the turnover rate is so high. So even like for years. I mean, it’s not, you know, the 20, 30, 40 years that you used to hear like of grandpa, but for years is still significant in in in the market that we currently have.

Gena Anderson 04:43
Yeah, you You’re right about that. I think in my profession, though, I am actually in the process of transitioning here in a few weeks to a different job. So it’s funny that you say that it’s a different company. Yeah. And it wasn’t necessarily my plan. It’s God’s plan. When was that I? This was a complete surprise. To me, but that’s a discussion probably for another day. But yes, I think, especially in other in my profession, it’s important to have a relationship with your patients. And that just takes time. So I don’t think leaving quickly bodes well for anybody, but in a lot of other professions there, people move around a lot these days.

Paige C. Clark 05:19
Yeah, that’s for sure. And don’t tell me a little bit about like how you found yourself in nursing. Obviously, you went to school for it, but like, why did you choose it? Why did you go down that route? And then also, like, I love to hear where did your faith journey align with your career journey? Were you already a Christian when you decided to become a nurse? How did all of that look?

Gena Anderson 05:46
Yes, that’s a good topic to discuss what a good question is. So I became a nurse. Well, what pointed me in that direction really was the suggestion of my mother; I shadowed a nurse in middle school. And it was a project that we had to do, we’re supposed to shadow someone in their career, and I really kind of was enamored with how it was at a clinic, and small-town clinic. And I really kind of just loved how these people, the patients, would connect with the nurses there. And just how there was, you could see this relationship, and this is carrying this with the nurses, and some of the patients would bring in cookies, or a little goodie or something. And it just seemed, it just seemed so life-giving to everyone. I love the relationship part of it. And so I knew that after that point, I knew that I wanted to do something where I could work with people. And I knew that I was interested in the human body and always had been interested in health and wellness. And so that’s kind of where it led to me writing about that. And then I also Ironically, one of the things I didn’t want to do at the time was having a job where I was sitting at a computer, which is funny because now we just use computers all day, every day. But at the time, I didn’t know that was where the world was heading. Yeah. And so, for those reasons, that’s what led me into nursing. I was a Christian I was I grew up going to church, Southern Baptist Church, and I had a profession of faith and was saved as a young child. But what I would say is, I didn’t really; it was kind of my Get Out of Jail Free card for a long time. And I mean, I went to church when I wanted to, and I didn’t really live out that day; I didn’t live a life of discipleship and those kinds of things. And so I kept my work in my faith pretty separate. For many years, and then, as, as I, probably in my early 30s or late 20s, started to really develop a relationship with the Lord, I started to learn that, oh, discipleship happens in the workplace and out in the world. You know, it’s not being a Christian isn’t about going to church, there’s nothing wrong, you should go to church, but right, that actually in the workplace is where we have the opportunity to live out our faith. So now, especially in my role as a nurse practitioner, I would say I, I live that out regularly, more often, more authentically, because I have an opportunity to sit down one on one with people and discuss what’s going on in their lives and often does lead to a discussion about faith. Yeah. And, so it’s been an evolution as far as my faith and my work, a giant being and what that looks like.

Paige C. Clark 08:41
Yeah, that’s, that’s a great story. And I mean, the answer to this could totally be No, but have you had any experiences as a nurse that have caused you to knock like it could question your faith or just like, be a sticking point for your faith in your career journey?

Gena Anderson 09:05
That is a good question. You know,

Paige C. Clark 09:09
I think it also depends on what area of nursing Yeah, you kind of stick? Yes,

Gena Anderson 09:14
I have done many areas of nursing. But if anything, actually, I would say that it has reinforced my faith and reinforced what God’s Word teaches us because there are a lot of things that you run across. I mean, I have seen some really devastating things happen, you know, holding people’s hands as they die. Young people who you know you would think shouldn’t die. It’s too young. You know, I’ve seen a lot of hard things happen. But often, if people know the Lord, they are so resilient in those moments and their keys, and you can really have a front-row seat to see how God really works. So I can’t say I’ve had I had a time where it’s made me an experience or something going on with a patient has made me question my life; it’s actually been the opposite. It solidified and encouraged me in my fate.

Paige C. Clark 10:12
Hmm, that’s beautiful. I think one thing that I heard recently is, you know, that like, there’s always the poignant question of, like, Why does God let you know bad things happen to good people and that whole kind of rigmarole. But it’s it was around the idea of suffering. Of like, when you’re a Christian, you’ll still suffer. And like, you know, the Bible shows us that. But as Christians, we get a unique hope through suffering that makes the suffering a lot easier. And I feel like that’s a little bit of what you were saying is what you would see and, you know, patients going through hardships.

Gena Anderson 10:55
Exactly, exactly. Like, I can tell you that one story that is just a quick story that, again, a guy shared with me; he was actually doing quite well physically at this point. But a number of years before, he had heart surgery, open heart surgery, and he actually died as his heart stopped. And during some, I think, during the recovery process or something, and they coded him and brought him back. But he said in that experience, he actually met Jesus and saw him. And when he came back, he woke up, and he was still in this role. He was mad. I mean, he was, he was like, and he makes it a point. This has been years. But he makes a point to make all anyone who takes care of him. No, like, do not ever resuscitate me; if I’m going again, I’m staying there like that. So just things like that, that you hear that, that just reinforce how, even in death, which is so hard for us that are left behind that, that it’s such a good thing to move on to the next life and be with Jesus. And even in suffering. A lot of times, people, even though it’s hard, it’s hard to watch. It’s hard to experience. A lot of times, people have such intimacy with the Lord as the Lord draws near to us when we suffer. So I just get to see that a lot.

Paige C. Clark 12:19
Yeah, that’s beautiful. One thing that I’m actually one of the writing projects that I’m working on is how to be close to God, in not suffering in the mundane. Because, yeah, you’re 100% Right. It’s, it’s hard, but it’s easy to cling to some good and some hope, and usually that that cling is to God.

Gena Anderson 12:45
Yeah, yeah. And I do think, for me, personally, I can definitely relate to that. Like, it is a challenge to cling to the Lord so tightly when everything’s kind of okay.

Paige C. Clark 12:55
Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about I like to kind of make it from a macro. Yes, I like to practice my faith at work. But, like, let’s take it micro. And let’s talk about, like, what does that actually look like on a day-to-day basis? How do you show up as a Christ follower? In your work and with your patients, and were with your colleagues, and so on and so forth?

Gena Anderson 13:26
Yeah, so I try to, in anything I do in my life, live with bearing that identity showing that identity in Christ. And so I try to bring that into my workplace. And I wouldn’t say that I talk about Jesus all the time or, you know, mention his name all the time. I look for moments to do that. But I would say I try to live it out and in trying to live out my faith in what I do. Yeah. And so how I interact with people, one of the things that I really prioritize is just listening to people, and really listening to, to what’s behind what they’re saying, what’s going on in their life, and making them feel heard. I think that’s one of the biggest gifts that you can give people, and they’re not going to trust you or give you the time of day to give them medical advice or, you know, tips on encouraging them to know the Lord. Either way, if they don’t feel like you care about them. And so, with my coworkers, with my patients, I think I just really work on listening, being present with them, and taking the time to make them feel heard and cared about. And that, to me, is as important or more important than medically making the right decision and doing the right thing for them because I just think it matters more. Yeah. And so that’s really how I live that out. And, you know, I’ve done little, little practical things, sometimes, like I said, I help people lose weight. And so if I see they’re struggling, and we have a conversation about their faith, and they’re open to it, I’ll make one of their weight loss goals, you know, things like to eat more vegetables, and of course, there are specifics around it, but I’ll make one of their goals to be to pray every morning or find a couple of Bible verses that encourage them. And so I do it in practical ways, too. But mostly, it’s, it’s just in how I interact with people, just helping them to, to feel like, like, they matter.

Paige C. Clark 15:46
I think that you have you and anyone else in the healthcare kind of industry, especially those who have interfaced with patients. And when you work at a smaller, you know, not like the ER, where it’s gonna come in, and they’re gonna leave. Hopefully, you don’t see that person again. But, in the industry and in the function that you’re at, you actually get to build relationships with these people. And I think that’s one thing that I didn’t necessarily anticipate going into this conversation. Like, I just, I just didn’t really think of it of, yeah, like I, I work to build this kind of rapport with my coworkers. But that’s because I talked to my coworkers all the time, but you have that with your coworkers and your patients, and the people are like, you know, quote, unquote, your customers, right? The people you interface with daily also extend your patients.

Gena Anderson 16:46
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that’s one of the reasons why I say it’s such a privilege because you really get this intimate relationship with people. And people trust you with some sometimes really vulnerable information that they’re sharing with you. And so it’s pretty sacred, really? And yeah, it’s definitely, it’s a privilege, but it’s an opportunity for a Christian.

Paige C. Clark 17:10
Yeah. And, and to the other thing that stood out while you were talking is, is the ability to connect faith with kind of overall well-being and physical health; I think that I kind of see it a little bit in the Christian environment, that this, this idea of physical health is a little bit far removed from our faith when really, it is very, very intertwined. And you hear a lot of people who say, you know, our bodies are temporary, but also God created our bodies. So intentionally and so detailed that, like, we get these bodies, even though they’re just temporary for life, like we need to be good stewards of that.

Gena Anderson 18:06
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 100%. That is, that is one of the things that inspired me to start writing about wellness as a Christian and mostly geared towards Christian women, but because I don’t hear a lot of talk about that in churches, you know, hear a lot of sermon series on health and wellness. Yeah, but I love that you said our bodies are temporary because our bodies are also a temple. Yeah. And, so yes, they’re temporary, you know, we don’t need to make it an idol to write, you know, to make our bodies look a certain way. So that we get praise or we get the attention that we want. But our bodies are a temple, and we can’t do what God created us to do. And we can’t, we can’t experience, but God intends for us to experience if we’re not well, and part of that is their spiritual, mental, and physical wellness. You know, it’s all-encompassing. And then, on the flip side, for me personally, as a healthcare provider, if I’m just treating the physical and I’m ignoring the spiritual Well, then I’m missing a whole. I mean, I can’t tell you how many people come in. As I said, I specialize in helping people lose weight. I would say over half of those people are facing a spiritual and emotional battle that is holding them back from reaching their health and wellness goals. So I have to address that. I have to pay attention to that. And I have to have to be open to conversations about both. And so yeah, I think you’re totally right. I think that, in the Christian spaces, we could do with starting started a few years ago, really emphasizing and embracing and discussing mental health issues. Right. That’s awesome. And I’d love to see it even go further and to spill over into more physical health issues and, yeah, kind of thing.

Paige C. Clark 20:04
Yeah. And the funny thing is, too, so my husband and his family, they’re all or he was raised up seventh day Avernus and Seventh Day Adventists are known for their emphasis on healthy living. So if you look at the healthiest city in America, it’s actually in California. It’s Loma Linda, which is a Seventh-Day Adventist community. And there’s Loma Loma Linda high school or hospital, and there’s the medical school there and all that stuff. And it’s the healthiest community because that’s just kind of what they put their emphasis on in terms of their living. But yeah, that’s what I always like to say, every denomination has this little focus area, where I’m just like, we need to like all of that, oh, I just hit my mic. Well, we have all of that kind of like all at once. But that’s just an aside. But yeah, it’s the funniest thing where I’m part of their community outreach, there’s, you know, a ton of SDA churches out here, part of their outreach is doing a diabetes care clinic, at a church. Like that was one of their ministries that they did was, hey, let’s help you take care of and manage your diabetes.

Gena Anderson 21:27
Well, that’s awesome. I love it. All right, interesting. I actually didn’t know that. And you hear where I am. And so many churches now are nondenominational, but right in this area used to be so heavily Southern Baptist. And I mean, I feel like as far as I mean, we’re every event has a casserole full of, you know, butter and chicken soup, and, you know, whatever else goes in there. And so, I think that’s awesome. You know, and I’d love to see more of that in Christian circles, and I’m not. Yeah, it’s not talked about at all, but Right, yeah, but see more, and it matters.

Paige C. Clark 22:07
Yeah. And, and that there’s just that one, you know, just that one ministry of having, like, you know, like, how to manage your diabetes, I was, it just took me aback where I was just like, oh, like, you know, God is still in that space, too. And just like, you know, approaching ministry from, like, a really unique perspective. For example, the church that we attend they have what they call a Car Care Clinic. And it is a very practical, tangible way of ministering to people in the community is helping them out with any current issues that they may have, you know, and so it’s just kind of like thinking outside the box of, you know, what ministry could really look like, and really see that God can be in all of these different places.

Gena Anderson 22:54
Yeah, well, and often, that’s how we reach people by meeting their practical needs. And then it that sort of starts that trust relationship I was talking about, yeah, you can, if you can meet a practical need that they have, in a physical way, whether it’s with their physical body or in your car, or whatever it is, you know, then then they see that you care, and then they’re like, now tell me about what is this Jesus that you’re talking about?

Paige C. Clark 23:19
Right. And if you look at Jesus’s ministry, and what he went after, in terms of, you know, his healings and right, like when he fed the 5000, right, like it was a very practical need people needed to eat so he provided food.

Gena Anderson 23:38
Sure, for sure, Jesus met practical needs all the time.

Paige C. Clark 23:42
Yeah. Yeah. And it just wasn’t, and which is, you know, part of my little, you know, soapbox at all live and die on it was like, let’s not just give people fluff, like, let’s actually meet people and give people practical actions, which is what we finished this podcast with. But we’re not there yet today. So take me through a little bit because you’re you started off this conversation by telling me all the hats you’re wearing, which is phenomenal. And I totally resonate with that. I don’t resonate with the mom hat because I’m not a mom; I am a dog owner. I don’t call myself a dog. Mom, I hate that term. Because it is different, in my opinion. And mom’s odors of dogs are different as much as I love my fluffy dogs. Talk about, like, what that looks like and kind of wearing all of those hats, and also making sure you’re caring for yourself in a spiritual way.

Gena Anderson 24:39
Yeah, so it is a challenge. To be honest, it adds a challenge, and I’m someone I told someone the other day speaking of dogs; I said, I said we were talking about retirement and those kinds of things. And I said, you know how there are certain dog breeds that they say they misbehave and you I get in trouble because they’re bred to work. And they want to be doing what they were bred to do, right? And I feel like I’m that kind of human, that was a dog. I was bred to work. And so, for me, as a mom, I know that there are a lot of moms that, once they have children, stay at home. And that’s amazing. Yeah, but I did it a little bit and a couple of phases in my life. But mostly, I have always worked at least part, if not full-time. And I just need that satisfaction of having meaningful work for myself. And that interaction with other humans that aren’t humans that I’ve heard. And yet they are the ones I’m married, you know, and get and so, but it is a challenge. And because I’m a hard worker, and my work does matter to me, some I have, I have learned to create boundaries. And, I don’t always do that perfectly, or well, but I try. And, so my days often look like that. As far as taking care of myself, I get up early in the morning, go to a 5 am workout class, do a workout at home early in the morning, and do my Bible study early in the morning. And I have to get kind of creative with how I have one on one time with the Lord. You know, I listen to Christian podcasts a lot. Sometimes in the morning, I might have five or 10 minutes at the most to be able to sit with the Lord and just pray, maybe write out a prayer and spend time listening to him for a few minutes to just connect myself with him and turn my heart to him. With the kids, you know, I’ve learned that work will always be there. And I try to prioritize things with the kids and, like my son, what do you look for these, these phases, and these times where this is a time that I can miss and I’m going to be working because that’s my responsibility. And then, on the other hand, this is a time that I don’t want to miss; my son just graduated fifth grade. And so, my last kiddo in elementary, it’s the end of an era. So I made sure this last year that I went to his activities and things like build trips and having lunch with him at school and just special things like that. And so it’s always a balance of trying to meet my responsibilities and be a good employee. But knowing that, especially as a Christian woman, your first ministry is to your family, right, and my husband and my children. So I try to keep it in mind. And a huge tip for balancing that it’s something that worked really well for me is just utilizing my calendar and always looking ahead. And so if someone says, Hey, do you want to meet and work on this thing for the church, or there’s a ministry that I’m a part of, and I volunteer with it? I’m always looking at my calendar. And sometimes it’s like, well, I’m already doing this other thing on Tuesday. So I don’t want to pick up another thing on Thursday. So no, not that week. I’ll do it next week. So just trying to balance and make sure that I’m not neglecting the people in my home. Or my work. Yeah. And it’s hard. It’s not easy. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 28:33
Yeah, you practically read my mind with, like, looking ahead and looking at your calendar. While you were talking. I was thinking, Oh, I’m hearing a trend of looking ahead here with, like, your son in fifth grade. And, you know, you have to be able to pause and kind of look forward to the upcoming season that is happening and be able to manage your time and responsibilities accordingly.

Gena Anderson 29:02
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, it does take some anticipation, and you never know what the Lord’s gonna bring. You know, he kind of does his own thing, right? So, so I have to be ready for that too. But yeah, anticipation. It’s you. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 29:20
And me and my husband just walked through like a really hard season. And in that, I usually volunteer at my church on Saturdays. And I just said, You know what, like, I need to take a step back for the season. I’ll be back. I’m not leaving forever. Like, I’ll be back and volunteering. But right now, this requires me to kind of take a step back, and you know what, like, my weekends or our weekends together, have been so just life-giving in this season that I don’t have any regrets. It’s about kind of taking that step back.

Gena Anderson 30:03
Yeah, yeah. And I, yeah, you have to listen to what the Lord puts on your heart and what’s going on in your life. And every season is different. And so the way, the way you live out whatever God has called you to do, whatever ministry or service or whatever he’s put on your heart to do in this life, it’s gonna look different in every season. Yeah, there may be a season where you’re more focused on family.

Paige C. Clark 30:25
Mm-hmm. And I think of it too; I know a lot of people say, like, use this analogy, when it when they, when it comes to like friendships of like having like thinking of like a target, you have like your center, and then you have your, like, middle ring, and then you have their outer ring, and they can keep going. That’s kind of how I see, you know, my responsibilities and even my time and energy investment. So like, in the middle is like, obviously, it’s me, but also my family, my, my family has kind of that immediate investment. And then you go out, and that’s, you know, my church community, and then you go out a little bit more, and that’s kind of where my work finds itself. It’s, yeah,

Gena Anderson 31:08
yeah. And I love that you mentioned that because I’ve seen that I know that diagram you’re talking about, yeah. But for me, I see a lot of women that neglect themselves; I’m talking about prioritizing family and all of that, but I see a lot of women that put their family, their friends, and everyone else and everything else their job sometimes to above themselves. And I prioritize self-care not. I don’t think I hope it’s not in a selfish way. Right? But because I know that I can’t give to anyone if I’m not filled up. And so that’s why my time with the Lord is precious, you know, like oxygen or nutrition for me. Yeah, and, and exercise and good nutrition and getting enough sleep. I mean, all of that I prioritize for myself because I can’t do anything. I mean, if I don’t do those things, I’m gonna be snappy with my kids. And yeah, I’m gonna not be that good listener to my patients I was talking about, and it’s all just gonna roll downhill, right? Yeah. So that’s a huge priority. I think for women, we sometimes are just really self-deprecating, like, we, we, we feel like we need to be selfless and meet everybody else’s needs. At some point, you have to make sure that yours are met.

Paige C. Clark 32:31
Yeah. And I think, too, I really go back to scripture on that of was even having a conversation about this. In one of the small groups that I attended a few years ago, and they’re like, I think they said, like, self-care is not in the Bible. I’m like, okay, but also like here, like, have self-care, as we know it in our generation. Yeah, sure. Like, Jesus wasn’t going to get a manicure. But Jesus still retreated. And he even had, you know, private time with the Lord. And he had private time and prayer. And then he even retreated with his, with a closer group of friends than his 12 disciples retreated with them, and had, you know, unique time with them. And so I just kind of point to that and saying, like, you know, Jesus took care of himself and model taking care of himself in the ways that he needed to, even though he was perfect, He still made sure to have that time with God. So that’s just kind of what I always like, like, point to when it when I see all of this,

Gena Anderson 33:47
yeah, yeah, I mean, even God rested on the seventh day. Right? Right. Not because he was tired, but right, as an example to us and to see what he had done. Yeah. So we have to take care of ourselves.

Paige C. Clark 33:59
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So when it comes to kind of practicing your own faith and wearing all the many, many hats that you do wear, what is what would you say is kind of the biggest struggle that you run into the biggest sticking point because another thing that I want to say on here is like we’re all we all fall short of the glory of God we all fail we all struggle we all sin in some way, shape or form. And no one’s walk with God looks perfect. I personally really struggle with quiet time because my brain is not turned off. So, what is kind of the biggest obstacle that you’ve run into?

Gena Anderson 34:46
So I could pick several? Yeah, I think that yeah; I got a lot of that. I could pick several if I had to if I had to pick one. That would be a big the biggest struggle for me. It would, would be self-reliance or just the need to control things. And because you’ve heard a little bit about my life, and I have a full work schedule, and the family and I are serving in different ways, and I write I do all these things, right, right? And sometimes, it can feel like a lot that I need to manage. And it’s always a constant effort for me to remember that God’s in control. And everything he gives me is mine to steward, but it’s his and, so, just always trying to go back to submitting to him. And making sure that I’m walking in His will. So not taking over with the with, like a problem arises and me wanting to problem solve, yeah, rather than spend some time in prayer about it for a little while, or take it to him, and trusting him and letting Him lead me. But I think that’s probably the biggest thing. And then time would be that, like, if I could pick a number two, I would say time, because ideally, I would, I would like to, like right now it’s summertime. And so my kids don’t have to be somewhere early in the morning most of the time. So I have a little bit more time to sit down with the Lord. But when schools are in session, and I have to be at work at a certain time, It’s like sneaking away a few minutes here and a few minutes there. And I’m praying as I’m driving in the car. And like I said, sometimes I get on my days off; I’m really glad to have that one day off during the week and the weekend so that I can see a longer time with the Lord on those days. But just flat out, the amount of time that I have is a struggle. And so the way I get around that really is sort of being creative, and always keeping my trying to keep my heart turned to the Lord. So I’m always listening to podcasts, Christian podcasts, and Christian music. And on my lunch break, I might read, you know, touching Christian content. And so, always try to stay connected, even if it’s even if my full attention isn’t there like I would want it to be in a one-on-one time. You know, in the morning, morning, quiet time, but always trying to keep my attention and my mind and my heart tuned to the Lord is sort of the solution I’ve come up with. But time, time is hard.

Paige C. Clark 37:25
Yeah. And I think that goes a lot too, again, the physical environment that we find ourselves in, of just surrounding ourselves with Jesus, and a few episodes ago, on the podcast, I had a guest say if being a Christian was illegal, do you have enough Jesus in your life surrounding your life? To be able to sustain your faith? Yeah, it’s like a question, right? Like, it was just this big sucker punch of, like, not even in terms of just, like, do I have a cross on my door? Which I don’t own any crosses? But, like, do I have enough scripture in my head? And in my heart, do you know the music that I listened to? You know, impacting my life in that way? What about the shows I watch? What about what I read, etcetera? Examine didn’t go down the list. But yeah, that was one thing. I was like a huge sucker punch of like, do I have enough Jesus just like surrounding in my life? To be able to sustain that relationship?

Gena Anderson 38:32
Yeah, yeah. It’s such a good thing to think about.

Paige C. Clark 38:36
It’s hard. It’s that was like, we at my church, we call them throat punches. That was very throughout. She has her to bring that up.

Gena Anderson 38:44
How

Paige C. Clark 38:47
dare she. But yeah, and I really resonate with the, like, the Self Reliance piece, too, because a lot of what just the studying that I’m doing is a lot around God’s provision and our attempt for control in this work. Yeah.

Gena Anderson 39:06
Yeah. I mean, that’s why when Moses went up to the mountain, they made an idol. And, if you look at biblical history, we do the same things. Maybe we’re not making idols out of golden, you know, out of gold and making a map, but, but we’re making our own, and we’re always trying to take back control. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 39:30
So what does kind of your involvement with your church look like? And how do you find enough energy to be able to invest in that way?

Gena Anderson 39:43
Yeah. Well, it is a challenge as well, but I am very involved in my church, and I’ve been involved in church almost my entire adult life. And, so currently, I’m serving at my church as an elder, and I lead a women’s Bible study, and I serve a little bit kind of fill in here and there in children’s ministry. So I’m pretty involved as far as how I’m serving. But what I would say is, if you hear that I’m an elder, and you’re like, well, that’s impressive. Before less, lest you be too impressed. Let me just tell you that I am not always at the church. I mean, just last week, for instance, it’s summertime, so we’ve been out of town, so we had not been at church. And our church had a prayer night, which I love to go to. And that morning, I was like, I’m gonna go to this prayer night. And then, as the day went on, I was like, I’m not gonna go to this night because it felt too close to when I got off of work; the day kind of got away from me. And at the end of the day, I was just very tired. And I think there’s a; there’s a bit of discernment. I know; there’s a bit of discernment there. Because you have to make sure that it’s not like Satan’s not distracting you away from what you should do. Right? You have to allow yourself permission when you have so many things that you’re doing. And you know that the Lord has put you in these places. And he’s giving you the family that he’s giving you. You have to give yourself permission to not be present at every church function. Yeah, but I would say that I’m not as present in the church physically as I would like to be. Yeah. But again, it’s a posture and a mindset and a heart thing. Yeah. So um, if I’m not there, I’m often praying for the church. And as an elder, I try to reach out and have lunch or coffee with someone on a regular basis. I don’t do that as often as I’d like to. So I would say I’m very involved, but I don’t do all the things that my heart wants to do. But I also have to just be at peace with that. Yeah. And know that the Lord’s not like, I’ll see minus for you today. Because a prayer night and that’s what he wants in my heart and our relationship with me. And so it is, it’s a it’s a battle and a balance. But I definitely have less guilt now as life has gone on. And more peace about being able to say no, when I’m not supposed to be there and then say yes to the things that I am supposed to say it.

Paige C. Clark 42:32
Yeah. And correct me if you correct me if I’m like, inaccurately portraying this, but it also sounds like you’re also protecting yourself from being performative about your faith.

Gena Anderson 42:45
Yes. And that is a big thing for me, too; one of the things that I stumbled across and I’ve written about recently is that we have to desire God’s presence more than his praise. And so it’s, it’s so important to not do something just for the recognition. And, just to be there to say that we’re there. Right, versus to be doing something because our hearts are in it. And we know that God wanted us to be there. Yeah. And so yeah, for sure. And that has been big; I would say, a big breaking point or a big turning factor. A big pivot for me is that it’s not living out your faith is not about the checklist and doing the things that a good Christian girl should do; it’s about a relationship and that God desires most to have our hearts and know us and to have us want to know Him. And then everything else is kind of birthed from that.

Paige C. Clark 43:52
Yeah. And I think too, like, I think there’s like three categories of this. And I actually find myself very often in the I don’t feel it; I think, there’s I don’t feel it, there’s the I’m doing this just for looks. And then there’s the I’m doing this because I, you know, want and feel to do this. And I think you know if that makes sense. There’s kind of like three buckets because as you’re talking, I’m like, you know, there’s the discernment that must happen between like, I’m doing this for performative sake or, or I’m not doing this, because I don’t feel like it. But then part of me is also like, I also often do not feel like going to church, for example, or what have you.

Gena Anderson 44:40
Yeah, and that’s, that’s very discerning too because that’s not to say what I was sharing is not to say that everything that that we do, whether it’s with the church or in some other way, that in service and in ministry, whatever it is, everything we do is not gonna be something we want to do. I mean, there are some times that God is going to call us to do something that you’re like, I do not want to like, really, I don’t write that. But you’re sure that that’s what he wants you to do. So it’s not all about what you want to do. Right? But kind of what do you need to do? Yeah, and I think it’s completely okay, too; I think you can be involved. And you can be a member of a church community and be active and miss out on functions because you’ve worked all day. But don’t use that as an excuse every time. Like there was, there was a woman that came to my Bible study for years. And I use the term cane loosely because everybody knew Bible study; she would say, I’m so excited to see you guys again. And she might show up once, maybe twice. And then if every week she’d have a reason why she wasn’t coming, or that she had been too late or whatever it is. And so it’s not every time, you know, there’s, there’s a, there’s a commitment and a willingness to be present that I think is important and will lead to fruit in your life. Yeah, but you also can’t just keep if you keep pushing yourself to be there, for selfish reasons, honestly prideful reasons, then you’re going to exhaust yourself, and you’re not doing that from the Lord; you’re doing that from yourself. And so it’s not going to be free.

Paige C. Clark 46:37
Yeah, and it’s just, yeah, it’s just that discernment of figuring out kind of where it is. And I’ve definitely fallen into the trap of, like, especially with going into, like, small group, because I’m like, it’s at the end of the day, I don’t feel like I’m tired, like, but also, at the end of every week, it’s, I don’t regret going, you know, I always get filled up by the Lord for going and then on the other side of that, too, is I think, you know, again, this is where discernment comes in of it depends on what you’re doing and what your role is. Because with my small group, if I had an unhappy heart, I know that they are gracious and loving. And they would be like, okay, like page pages in a mood today, and like, That definitely happens. But also, these are the people that I’m doing life with. Whereas, like, you know, if you’re at a church function where there might be new people there, and you are just like in a really terrible headspace, you’re kind of like have the don’t talk to me. Sign on your forehead. Right. Maybe that is where discernment comes in. And like you decide to be back. Maybe behind the scenes that week. Yeah. Because we’re not all perfect. We don’t always have it together. But also we want people who are entering into whether it be a church or into the Christian world, you know, feeling welcome and feeling wanted there because they are. Yeah, yeah. Well, Gina, thank you so much for giving this glimpse of your life and how you balance everything because it sounds very difficult. And might you sound like a superhero, especially with those 5 am work? Oh, no. I always like to say like, yes, like, I get my best work done in the morning. But then I want to go back to bed after my best work done. There have been many times where I, like, I might wake up at like four, and I’m like, oh, like, I’m awake for the day. I might as well, like, go get something, go get some writing done. Maybe go to the gym, and then I come back home, and I crawl into bed and back asleep for another two hours. So the 5 am workout is very, very impressive. Well, if it makes

Gena Anderson 49:08
Do you feel any better occasionally on a Tuesday? I have actually done that. I’ve come back and gone back to bed for lunch. So there now you can feel that.

Paige C. Clark 49:18
does feel good. Well, I always like to conclude our podcast with what is one thing our audience can do and take away with this week to implement a faith-building discipline for their life.

Gena Anderson 49:32
So I think the best thing that we can do, especially as folks who work out in the world, I think the best thing we can do is ask ourselves what is our purpose, and as Christians, our purpose is always to go and tell the world about Jesus, right? But specifically, how do you do that? And how do you show the world who Jesus is and so So if you know that, then you can look at your calendar, for instance, and say, well, these things I can you can ask yourself when I go to work, how do I live that out? What posture am I going to have? How am I going to behave? What are things I’m gonna say and do with your family with whatever you’re doing? And you can also identify things in your life that maybe don’t align with that. And maybe those are things that you need to scale back or let go of if you can. And so I feel like identifying some somehow aligning with your purpose, what you do in your career, and figuring out how those two fit together. So for me, it was a game changer when I realized that I help people to live well. And I believe that through a relationship with Jesus and knowing his love for me, and my love in return for him, how that plays out, and how I live my life. But I can show people, my patients, that I take care of at work, I can show people as an example, and I can show them how to live their life well, and I can do all those things I was talking about before with listening to them. So just, I did, I think, identifying your purpose and asking yourself with each area of your life. How does this fit?

Paige C. Clark 51:28
Yeah, oh, I love that. It really resonates with me. And one thing that my church often says is, you know, as, as a as kind of an American western culture. If you want to know where a person’s affections are, look at their time, like look at their calendar and look at their wallet. Where are you spending the most time, and where are you spending the most money? That’ll show you where their affections are. And so I feel I hear a little bit of what you’re saying and that and that align your actions and your values with your purpose, and everything will kind of like shimmy into place there. Yeah,

Gena Anderson 52:11
exactly.

Paige C. Clark 52:12
I love that. Well, Gina, thank you so much for joining us. Where can our audience find you if they want to hear more from you? Read some of that writing that you’re doing and all that good stuff.

Gena Anderson 52:24
Yeah, thank you so much, Paige. It was so great to have this conversation. Thanks for what you’re doing. I’m excited to read more and hear more from you. But people can find me at Gina G and A Gina writes.com. That’s my website. And you can find me on Instagram, that’s primarily the social media avenue that I use, and so it’s Gina Anderson writes is my Instagram but Gina rights.com. And then my books are on Amazon, so you can search for my author’s name there. The good woman is one title, and no excuses are the Bible study on the book of James, so that’s where you can find it, and again, it’s been a great conversation. I’m so thankful you’re doing this. I think this is a great and powerful thing. Paige,

Paige C. Clark 53:08
thank you. Thank you, and all of those links will be in the show notes as well. So you have easy access to go find Gina and the good woman. I feel like I’m definitely going to like be on Amazon right after I finish things and this meeting, and going to buy that because it sounds like a wonderful read. So thank you so much, Gina. I really appreciate your time. Thank you

Paige C. Clark 00:39
Hello, Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Nine to five faith. I’m here with my friend Katie Axelson, Axel-son. How am I saying that right? Yeah, you got it. Axelson is it’s a little bit of a teaser with an L right next to an S.

Katie Axelson 00:55
Like you just don’t expect it. A lot of people flip it, and they say Alex, and that’s wrong.

Paige C. Clark 00:59
No, I saw you got the x right. That’s Axel. Yes. How are you doing today?

Katie Axelson 01:04
I’m doing well. Thanks. How are you?

Paige C. Clark 01:06
Good, doing good. Besides, you know, having that timely coughing attack, it’s okay.

Katie Axelson 01:14
Always right when it matters.

Paige C. Clark 01:16
Exactly. It’s like when the waiter comes up, and they’re like, asks you how your food is, and you’re like a mid-bite. But yeah, like, as I worked once upon a time doing service for food. And yeah, it’s definitely difficult to, like, time that perfectly because the tables always take up.

Katie Axelson 01:35
Well, which is a good thing. You want them to be eating their food. That is true.

Paige C. Clark 01:39
And it’s true, whether they

Katie Axelson 01:40
like a conversation, like

Paige C. Clark 01:41
quiet dinner as a good dinner because you know everyone’s going to be eating. That’s true. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah, so

Katie Axelson 01:49
my name is Katie Axelsson. I’m in my mid-30s. I’m single; I just moved to Austin, Texas. So my day job is in digital content. So basically, like website organization stuff, I host have Hopewell travel podcast, which is a podcast designed to create space for others to share their perspectives and their stories. So we can make the world a smaller place. Just like when we travel, we get to know people who are different than we are. And we understand things a little bit differently. So we stand with people instead of having opinions on issues.

Paige C. Clark 02:15
Yeah, I love that it makes the world a smaller place. Oh, that’s beautiful. And you’re sitting with a fellow like Digital Marketer person over here. So we are in good company. I love anything. Phil. So you just moved to Austin from where? Minneapolis, Minnesota. That is quite the job.

Katie Axelson 02:34
It is quite the jump, especially to do it in June. Yeah. Because Minneapolis is just starting to get gorgeous in June, and Austin is not getting gorgeous in June.

Paige C. Clark 02:43
Yeah. Yeah, I’m in Arizona, and it is stinky hot outside. But Texas is also humid. So

Katie Axelson 02:51
yeah, I went on; I had to check my mail in the middle of the day today. And it was actually gorgeous. It was like 89, And I was like, this is a perfect day. So all of my outside projects. I was like, Oh, I’m doing them right now.

Paige C. Clark 03:04
That’s perfect.

Katie Axelson 03:05
It’s gonna get to like 105. But yeah, that’s fine. It was perfect.

Paige C. Clark 03:08
Like 113 Here. No big deal is yeah, we are. So why did you move? That’s such a significant move. Yeah. So I moved for work. Okay. Okay. So is this a new job or just like relocating out of, like, kind of convenience for the work

Katie Axelson 03:25
relocating on convenience for the work? I, I was working remotely for a while, and then it just makes more sense for me to work hybrid.

Paige C. Clark 03:31
Gotcha, gotcha. And so kind of tell me a little bit about, like, what you do?

Katie Axelson 03:41
That’s a great question, um, that I don’t have an easy answer for. I like kind of in the project manager realm of digital content. So basically, my job is to make sure that we are doing what we say we’re going to do. And the type that we say we’re going to do it. And so it’s a lot of tracking people down, a lot of following up, a lot of, like, resetting. Hey, we said we have this for you today. We’re gonna have it for you tomorrow. We’re on it, you know? Yeah, those types of things. And so making sure I’m organizing communication. All right. Do you work for

Paige C. Clark 04:13
an agency? I do not know you work in-house, huh? Wow. The way you’re talking about it is like, I bet she worked for an agency. I’m

Katie Axelson 04:21
wrong. You work. I am one of the few house yeah, I’m one of the few house people. I’m

Paige C. Clark 04:25
an in-house person too. So for those who are not familiar, you can either contract out your work to an agency or you can do it in-house; sometimes, it’s a hybrid depending on the size of the company. But I’m an in-house person where I’m like I like to have one client focus on one brand, one voice, and all that good stuff. Exactly. Exactly. So project manager, which means, yeah, Ultra organized as well.

Katie Axelson 04:53
I think that’s the thing. I was freelance for a while. I started my career freelancer, contractors as a contractor, and it was fine. Like, I enjoyed that. But I also found that it was really hard to manage what I was writing at the time, the different voices between the different organizations. So like, I had one university that was very professional, very formal. And they actually gave me a desk that I showed up to. So it was very professional, very organized; here we are. And then I had one Christian organization that was very loose, like pretty, extremely loose within the Christian realm, like, let’s not get wild here. And I had a really hard time switching between those two voices, especially as I was, like, splitting my days, half day, or whatever. And I didn’t have an office to show up to. That was for the more loose organization. And I was like, Whoa, this is a trick for my brain. I figured out how to do it, but it was difficult. Yeah. And I would prefer to be in the house.

Paige C. Clark 05:45
right? Yeah, it’s definitely there’s definitely those I did a stint at an agency. And my boss slash, like, the owner of the agency was like, I hate. I would hate to work on the same thing every day. And I’m like, I love it. I love it. I’m a creature of habit. I love to work on the same things. Not because it’s redundant, but also it just I think, like, you know, you can really hone your craft and like, when you work in a house, like hone your voice, like really get to know your voice.

Katie Axelson 06:16
Yeah. So I always, and you know, like, this is how we did it five years ago. So we did it. 10 years ago. This is how we’re doing it now. Like you’ve been part of that journey. Yeah, all the way through, which is the benefit when you’ve been with a company for a while, versus a contractor is just coming to me like, Hey, this is great. And you’re like, No, we can’t do that we’ve already done.

Paige C. Clark 06:30
Yeah, yeah, for sure. It’s funny. My husband was just like proofreading, like a website page that I had built for myself. And he’s like, it sounds a little informal. But that sounds like you. And I was like, Oh, good. Like, that’s like what I want to come to work.

Katie Axelson 06:43
Yeah. So

Paige C. Clark 06:45
where in your faith journey? Did you like it? Or where in your work history? Did you find your faith journey?

Katie Axelson 06:55
Ooh, that’s a good one. So I started my career freelance, and I was mostly working for Christian organizations. So it’s always been part of my faith journey. Or my faith in my work? I’ve always been together, right? Um, I lived abroad as a missionary for a year, and I came home when I took my first secular job. And I, like, hadn’t switched my brain. And so very right away in my first introductory email, I was like, I love Jesus. And everyone was like, Whoa, that was like things Katie did ten years ago that she wouldn’t do again. It was fine. It was respectful, but everyone was respectful about it. But it still was a little bit more forward than I think they were prepared for. I’m kind of a what you see is What You Get kind of woman’s story. Right. So it’s always been part of my journey. And I’ve never really known, like, what that would look like, especially now working in a secular company, where I can’t talk about Jesus all the time. I can’t go on mission trips with coworkers like things like that just don’t happen. But I found that there’s still space to make it worshipful to like, honor the Lord in my work, do what He has called me to do, and be in the place where he’s called me to be. And the reality is, I get to spend 40 hours a week with people who are probably not ever going to step into a church. And I don’t want to speak that over them. And I have to hear that they have stepped into a church, but they spend 40 hours a week with me. I like Holy Spirit lives in me. And so here we are, and I get to pastor them in some ways through their hard seasons. And if nothing else, if they if we end our time together, and they’re like Katie was nice, I enjoyed working with her. I’m fine with that. But if they’re like, something’s different about Katie, and I want to know more about that, that differences, Jesus, let’s talk about it. Or, like, heaven forbid, they end up in some sort of a crisis, and they don’t know what to do. But they know that I’m pretty level-headed. And then, I will know the resources. Maybe they call me, you know, and maybe I can minister to them at that moment. Or maybe I can minister to them just on a hard day when they’re not feeling well. But I’m getting ahead of myself. We’ll talk about that later.

Paige C. Clark 08:57
I love that, though. And I totally resonate with the whole, like, I love Jesus because I got a job offer one time at a secular company. And like my instinct was like, Oh, let me take the weekend to pray about that. Like, that’s how I wanted to answer, and I was like, Paige, like, they don’t understand what that means. Like, they don’t speak that language. And so I like had to, like, now that I’m married, it’s like a really good kind of like crutch or like, let me talk to my husband about it. But like, really, I’m like, no, let me also talk to Jesus about it.

Katie Axelson 09:32
Right? Yeah. I will just say like, Let me think about it. And it thinks it is prayer. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 09:40
I love it. I love it. So what’s the most significant difference? Besides kind of working as a contractor versus in-house, but like for a Christian company versus a secular company? What is the most like Standing meaning like most in your face difference?

Katie Axelson 10:08
Somebody is going to cancel me for saying this. I actually think that, at least in my experience, my secular company does church better than my Christian companies. And what I mean by that is my secular company is very welcoming. They are very respectful of my I love Jesus, just like they’re very respectful of everyone else. And it’s a space where you can bring all of who you are to work. And in a Christian space, you can’t always bring all of who you are to work because there are some aspects of people that aren’t welcome in Christian churches, and I’m not even talking about, like, the extreme or like the political things like I know people who are divorced who feel unwelcome in a Christian organization. Yeah. And so being able to bring all of who I am has been so like, refreshing, and to be so respectful, and to be so like, willing to help. When I was moving from Minneapolis to Austin, I needed help with my house, but I actually didn’t. I mean, I did eventually go to my church friends. But I started with going to the team who was in Minneapolis; I was like, hey, coworkers, I need your help with this, this and this, and this, or I need to borrow somebody’s truck or saw or whatever. And they were all willing to provide it because that’s just kind of the community that we have as a company.

Paige C. Clark 11:25
Yeah. That’s interesting, too. And, like, I wasn’t expecting that answer. Because I think it also, like, it says a lot about, like, the company culture, also, as I would maybe argue to say, like, I don’t even know the company that you work for. But you can tell people who are more either religious or faith-based in some regard how they run their company is different than those who don’t. So like, you see that trickle down, to kind of create that atmosphere of belonging and acceptance. But I’d also say, like, that’s a rare experience where your Christian faith is more accepted because I will say, I’ve worked in the tech space for a long time. And that is not the case. Ballmer, so, but I am pleasantly hearing that that is the case for you, which is awesome to hear.

Katie Axelson 12:25
Yeah. I really enjoy it. And I think about, like, one of my bosses at a Christian organization. I had been traveling for work that weekend. And she’s like, Did you share the gospel with the person sitting next to you on the plane? I was like, No, I took a nap. Like, I don’t want to talk to the person sitting next to me on the plane. And just there was that, like, pressure and obligation? I’m not even working right now. I am on a plane. Right. And so there was none of that with my secular company. They’re like, Do you have a good nap on the plane? I was like, Yes, I did. And they’re like, by the way, I sent you an email while you’re on the plane, but you can get to when you get to. And I was like, thanks.

Paige C. Clark 12:58
Yeah, yeah, I think like, again, it. It does allow for a level of human humaneness. When when you do find yourself kind of in a secular company. Because as we were just briefly chatting, right before this episode, we were saying, like, you know, this perspective isn’t talked about. And like, I think that is because a lot of what we hear in Christian culture is from the pulpit, and people who, I mean, nine times out of 10, I don’t want to speak for every Christian church in America, but nine times out of 10. That’s their only job is to do the pastor thing and to do the ministry thing, which is great, but also, the rest of us don’t.

Katie Axelson 13:48
Right, right. And I think that, in some ways, it needs to be their only job because it is more than a full-time job. Like the pastors that I know are working 68 hours a week, there’s no possible way you’re gonna be able to, Yeah, vocational, but at the same time, like we need somebody who understands the workplace, to help us actually implement what we believe on Monday morning, like having a Monday morning faith, which is why I absolutely love your show, to be able to bridge that gap and to step in between the two.

Paige C. Clark 14:14
Yeah, and I think even just like the language that we speak is different, like, like you were just saying with like the playing experience, like someone saying, like, oh, did you talk to the person about the gospel like next to you like that conversation? While it’s important? I think that those of us who kind of work in maybe a secular workplace, not that it’s not a priority, but I think it’s a really big shift in our approach to sharing the gospel. We’re like people who work full-time in ministry. It’s like you can kind of get away with, like, being like Jesus, right?

Katie Axelson 14:54
For work. I’m a pastor. Oh, hey, let me tell you about Jesus. Right,

Paige C. Clark 14:57
like it’s, it’s an easier jump there. Versus, like, the language that we talk in the secular workplace is more so walking alongside people versus, you know, just kind of preaching at them,

Katie Axelson 15:12
I guess. Yeah, it’s all relational. Yeah, that’s, that’s where it is. It’s the people that I am spending 40 hours a week or more with day in and day out. Do I know what their kids are doing? Do I? Or do I know their kids’ names? Do I know that they go to their sporting events? Do I know about their spouse, like, it’s actually investing in them and then covering for them when they’ve had some sort of situation where they can’t do their work? It’s like; I can help with that because your kid is sick. Do you know? Yeah. My examples are about families. I have single coworkers, too, that I support.

Paige C. Clark 15:41
That’s okay. That’s okay. I just thought that the other day that I was like, Oh my gosh, I’m pretty sure every single one of my coworkers, besides kind of the one who came over with me to the job, like, have kids and are like, either married or divorced or some situation like that. I’m like, Ooh, this is like really foreign. I am a dink. I am classified as a dink nice familiar with Yes.

Katie Axelson 16:04
dual income, no kids. Yes, my friends,

Paige C. Clark 16:07
when they come over, when I had a few friends who were single, and they came over, and they looked at my fridge, my fridge of all things, and goes, Oh, my gosh, that’s a dual income fridge. Like, I don’t know what that means. But okay, like, Yeah, apparently, a dual-income fridge is definitely a

Katie Axelson 16:26
thing. But it’s a nicer fridge with different stuff in it. Yes.

Paige C. Clark 16:31
And I mean, you also brought up a good point of, like, the demographics of people you work with are probably significantly different than those you see in ministry. Because I would, I mean, I don’t have stats to I’m sure there are statistics out there somewhere that I would argue to say, to stereotype the crap out of people excuse my language, but I say crap. To stereotype the crap out of people is, I would argue to say most people in ministry are married with kids.

Katie Axelson 17:07
Yeah, I would stereotype that too. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 17:11
And so what you’re saying too, though, is like, not only are the people you’re working with outside of that stereotype but also, like, the way you minister to them is different. Right? Yeah. So what does that look like to you? I like to like to take my listeners through, like, a journey of, like, what your day a day in the life. Sure, that is what Kati looks like.

Katie Axelson 17:35
Yeah. So I would say every day is a little bit different. Because of just the nature of my work, no two days are ever the same. But generally, as a general guideline, I work remotely two days a week, and I work in the office three days a week. So it’s a balance of, like, getting my work done at home, but then also making sure that I’ve got relationships with my coworkers and getting the work done in the office. So I get up in the morning. And one of the disciplines that I’m not very good at, but I like to practice is from six until 730 In the morning, and at night, is no technology time. So I put my phone in the drawer of my bedside table so that I don’t see it first thing when I wake up, I do sleep with my Apple Watch on and so if there’s anything like emergency text messages, I will see those on my watch, and then can decide if it needs to be handled immediately. Or if it can wait until 730. Right. Um, so I see my text messages, but I try not to like to do anything with them. And so, like, Get up, get ready, like everyone else does. Try to spend some time with the Lord first thing in the morning. Now being in Austin, I’m learning that if I’m doing anything outside, that has to also happen first thing in the morning, and that’s making first thing in the morning very full. So kind of figuring out rearranging as needed there. And then I go to work, and I work all day. And then from six to 730 again at night, no more technology. And so, during that time, I tried to do something manually. I have heard the idea that if you work with your mind, rest with your hands; if you work with your hands, rest with your mind, and I work with my mind. And so I need to do things with my hands. Moving has had a great opportunity for that because I’m like, do I can paint this small so I can hang those pictures? I can do this, that, and the other thing, but sometimes means, something manual is just chopping vegetables, like something physical with my body or with my hands. In Minneapolis, I like to go for a walk during that time. You can’t do that here in Austin. That is the heat of the day. Do you not go for a walk from six to 730? No, but that was my favorite end-of-the-day activity. Yeah. And so just something to get me again away from the technology, away from the screen. I’m on a screen all day, sometimes multiple screens.

Paige C. Clark 19:44
As I get here with my iPad, my laptop, and my other laptop

Katie Axelson 19:47
on I have two computers, an external monitor, and a phone all on this desk right now. So yeah, I get it. I’m so stepping away from the screens. Like yeah, have that time away. And if I’m not feeling up to doing something manually, maybe I’ll read a book. During that time, I was just something a little bit different. That is away from the screens. And again, I’m not great at this. So don’t hear me saying I am an expert at this. But it’s a discipline. And it’s a discipline that I try to practice. And sometimes I’ll run errands during that time, or if there’s something that I’ve really been dreading, that’s not a screen project. That’s what I’d have to get on.

Paige C. Clark 20:25
And then, like timeframe, though, like six to 730, both in the morning and night. So you hear some people who are like, Oh, I do like, you know, just in the morning or just at night. And I like, though, like, anytime that falls between six and 730 is no.

Katie Axelson 20:45
I heard of a town, and I don’t know if this is true. I haven’t fact-checked us out on the internet. That’s really not true. But it inspired me. Apparently, this entire small town, I think, I want to say it was in Canada, but that might, it might have just been a Canadian individual that I heard it from. So maybe it wasn’t because the power is shut off in their town from six from seven to 830. And so, like, there’s just no screens from 7030. And so I tried that first, I was like, oh, seven 830. That seems to make sense. Except I also tried to wrap up whatever I was doing for the night at nine, so 830 to nine-time just wasn’t working for me. Right? And so that’s when I moved it earlier. And it’s closer to right after work, obviously. Do I leave work at five o’clock every single day? No. But if I hadn’t left work at six yet? Do I really need to stay? Or is it time for me to go? Yeah, so I have that discipline to have, like, Hey, I actually have to get out of the office at this point. Obviously, emergency, life happens, right? So it needs to happen, too. So it’s not a, not a law, right? Just a guideline rule. And so it’s a good time to be like, Oh, hey, it’s six o’clock, I need to go home. And so that’s why that time has worked. And then it’s if I do leave at five or 530, or whenever I leave, it’s a good chance to decompress from the day and to not jump straight into like my own podcast project, or things like that, because I could go straight from my work computer to my personal computer all night and just be fine with it. Yeah, and that is not good for my mental health. And I will feel the effects of that shortly thereafter. Yeah. So then six or 730 made more sense for me because then I can use it from 730 to nine-ish when I try to wrap up for the night to do my own podcasting stuff to catch up on emails and things like that. Sometimes my computer doesn’t get out again, like your email, for example, I saw it today it came in, but I just didn’t get responded to for a couple of days. All right, because I was trying not to be on my technology, and I was like, I will get back to the page; it’s just not gonna be immediate. And then, from nine to 10, I’m not as strict with the no technology thing, but it’s just better for your sleep hygiene if you’re not gone before bed. And so I tried to like read or spend that time with the Lord. But most of the time, from nine to 10 am, wrapping up whatever loose ends I have on the day. So not super disciplined about that one. But, um, that’s the goal. And then, in that time, at the end of the day, I tried to reflect on the day, and in different seasons, I need to reflect differently on that. So there was one year for Lent, I took the fruit of the Spirit, you know, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, all of those. And I wrote them out. Every single day I listed How did I see an example of faithfulness today? How did I see an example of joy today? Be it in my own life? Or in someone else’s life? How do they see an example of self-control today? Just those types of things. And sometimes, self-control is my sister had the opportunity to push my cousin in the pool, and she declined. You know what I mean? Like that’s still self-control. And so I still like to see an example of it. So some days, I go through all of them; that can be a project, right? So most days, I just go through what my word is for the year. So my work for this year has been generous. And so I look at, okay, where did I see an example of generosity today? The example of generosity I saw today was that somebody paid for my lunch. That was generous, that was unnecessary and generous, and I really appreciate it. So that’s where I got to see generosity today.

Paige C. Clark 24:04
I love that. I love that. And I think, too, like I always find that my mind starts just like reeling and going in like hyperdrive at night. Especially like I’ll start, I like to pray myself to sleep. I don’t know if this is a common thing. But I pray myself to sleep almost every night. But I’ll find myself like my brain will be like this if you I’m a hand talker, Italian, but like my brain will be on one path and then I’ll just kind of veer off and like go in the different direction. And so like just that discipline of like kind of emptying your brain at night, and it has shown to be like really helpful. Yeah. I love hearing. Yes. So how do you make sure that you fit in that one-on-one time with God?

Katie Axelson 24:56
That is a good question. And I think the answer depends on the day. Aaron viciously the like, good churchy answer if, like, you make it a priority. And that’s true, but at the same time, you make it a priority, and you fit it where it fits. Yeah, there was a season of life when I didn’t have that time in the morning or at night. It just wasn’t feasible because of the other situations in my life. But I had our lunch break. And so I would spend 2030 minutes eating with my coworkers, whatever, building relationships with them. But then I would spend the other 30 minutes off quiet somewhere reading or praying, or whatever it was in whatever quiet space I could find, which could be the elevator or like a back hallway, or like, wherever. I had people regularly be like, Why are you back here? And it’d be like, because I just needed some alone time because I’m an introvert, and y’all are a lot. And they’d be fair, you know? Yeah, and no, no one ever questioned that as long as I was where I was legally allowed to be there, like, Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. I, because otherwise, people are gonna ask me more questions. When I’m on lunch right now,

Paige C. Clark 26:00
I would always do hard naps. Although it’s hard to do in the summer, you just run by air conditioning and pay for gas later, car naps. And then, like, the time I was in the office, I would take desk naps, if my coworkers were, like, not around, like crawling or my desk and like take a nap. That was

Katie Axelson 26:20
people who have office doors have a luxury in that regard. Because they can just close the door or the blinds or whatever. And just like turning off the lights.

Paige C. Clark 26:28
Take a snooze. It’s true. I mean, I had a cube. So I would even do it there.

Katie Axelson 26:34
That’s it. They haven’t told that at a cure.

Paige C. Clark 26:35
Or if you have meeting rooms. My sister, my nephew, was trying to call me to ask if you have meeting rooms, and you book a meeting room, and then just like, shut the door and turn off the lights in the meeting room. It’s a good idea. Definitely done that before. Just yeah, have a little decompression time, have a little quiet time. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Katie Axelson 27:02
I kind of just figure out where my coworkers are and be somewhere where they are not.

Paige C. Clark 27:06
That’s valid, I think, I think too, and it like depends on the workspace and that you’re like, working in and like being surrounded by like, the types of people like are they all introverted? Or are they like, I mean, it’s marketing. So most people are extroverted,

Katie Axelson 27:22
you’re all extroverted, and they’re all creative. And they all drain me at the end of the day. I love them. Yeah, they are my people. But I need to get away from them. Sometimes,

Paige C. Clark 27:31
yes, I’m definitely, like, an ambivert, where I’m like, 5050, where I’m like, I can like, nerd out and like, go like so extroverted. But also, at the end of the day, I’m exhausted, and I need like 15 minutes of quiet time,

Katie Axelson 27:48
I need a mix of both. This is why I try not to take my work-from-home days consecutively. Because I need to not be by myself for too many days in a row, but also not to be with people too many days in a row. So the hybrid work schedule is perfect for me.

Paige C. Clark 28:01
That is awesome. That is awesome. That is like you have that level of self-awareness. Yeah, it works. So how long have you been in Austin now? Like, a month, a month? Awesome. Um, and I mean, I’ll ask this question. But I also like asking you and knowing that, like, you are probably still like very much getting settled in. But, like, Have you been able to find a church where you’re at? Like, have you been able to, like, get connected in that community? And, like, what is that looking like for you right now in this season? Yeah,

Katie Axelson 28:31
great question. So this exact season, I’m church shopping, which no one likes. Right, right. It’s the worst part about moving. I don’t know if that’s true. There are a lot of worst parts about moving. But it is still a discipline to make sure that I am showing up to church every week. One of the churches in the Minneapolis area is called Creative church and has this thing. Called they call the three-visit challenge, where they encourage you to visit the church three times before you make your decision on if you’re going to attend that church. They don’t need to be three consecutive weeks, I don’t think, but like the theory is, if you go once and there’s a guest pastor, you don’t really know what the church is like, right? If you go, like, maybe it’s a fundraiser weekend or something different is happening this weekend, like, free gives you a good feel for what the church is like. And so I’m trying to take a three-visit challenge with churches that I’m seeing. Sometimes I know right away, hey, this isn’t gonna be it. But sometimes I’m like, Okay, this was this wasn’t okay, church. Let’s try it again. And so, I did a three-visit challenge with the church and wasn’t thrilled with it. So we’re back to square one of starting over, but it took three visits for me to decide, visit one, I was like, it’s a five out of 10. Is it two? I was like, oh, it’s an eight out of 10. I like that and visit three. I was like, nope, three out of 10. We’re done.

Paige C. Clark 29:48
Goodbye. And then, you know, a lot of that comes with like discernment and you know, understanding like there is a very large church out by me and I did not need to go more And then once to decide like, yeah, pastors should probably not be preaching solely from the message. Like, that’s just true. You know, my opinion on that. But one thing that like I will say is not necessarily that, like, the pastor always needs to be on point every time. But when my husband and I were trying to find a church kind of like out here, we’re in the east valley. I just watched a bunch of sermons online from a bunch of different pastors. And I was like if it doesn’t, like, not necessarily at the message connects, but the way that it’s delivered and their speaking style and their teaching style, if it doesn’t land and it doesn’t connect, I’m like, that’s going to be a no for me.

Katie Axelson 30:47
Yeah. That is one of the beauties of the internet is that you get a chance to explore different churches. I always have to be careful because I’m like, Oh, I went to church online as it counts. Oh, yeah. Does it count? First of all, what are we counting? Second of all, like, your Church Online is not going to bring you a meal when you’re quarantined with COVID? Like, yeah, that’s an old example now. But yeah, it’s still the reality of, like, they’re not going to be there for you when you need them. Or just Sure. Making sure that you’re also going. Oh, yeah. So like, there are a couple of churches that I visited online before I moved, obviously, and yes, moving, that I’m like, I don’t need to visit that one in person. But there are people that I was like, oh, I should visit this one in person once I get

Paige C. Clark 31:24
there. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I completely agree. When I was shopping, I would like, take a day and just like, find all these different sermons from all these different churches and just watch them and be like, Okay, maybe this is one that we want to, like, go and visit and everything like that. And I think, too, it just depends on, like, teaching style and all that stuff. So right. Now,

Katie Axelson 31:45
I’ll also say like, I’m very comfortable in most churches; I can do high church, I can do low church, I can do it all. But I’m not truly. What does that mean? How high would the church be, like, more formal? Okay, church, I call, like, Robe kind of churches, more of your typical nondenominational church.

Paige C. Clark 32:02
I heard it put like that before. That’s why I had to stop you. Oh, no worries. Fascinating.

Katie Axelson 32:06
Yeah. So I’m comfortable in the more traditional churches, the less traditional churches, I’m comfortable in all of them. But I’m truly at home and very few churches. And so knowing that about myself, I’m like, well, I’ll just go where I’m invited. And so that’s how the church that I visited got three visits because a coworker invited me, and then a different coworker invited me to that same church, which I will say was the coolest thing. Getting to worship with my coworkers is an experience that I have never had before. Especially my secular college secular company. Yeah. And so to realize, okay, first of all, there are other Christians here a second of all, like, they know that I’m a Christian. And so they invited me to church. And now, here we are in this pew. And then there they are on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, whatever day I see them, like, is the coolest thing. And so, in some ways, that’s one of my priorities right now is like, okay, if I’m comfortable in most churches, how do I find a church where there are some coworkers that I can be worshiping with every week?

Paige C. Clark 32:59
Yeah, yeah, that’s really cool. And I think too, like, like, for me instantly. I’m, like, not close with my coworkers. Like, it just like made me kind of clam up a little bit at that thought because I’m like, oh, that’s like a very, almost like, intimate way to get to know your coworkers is to worship alongside. It is. Yeah, it is. So that is a risk, but also, like, again, it’s a high reward because then you are familiar with the types of people that you’re working alongside. And, you know, they kind of are raising their hand, and you can raise it back.

Katie Axelson 33:36
Exactly. Give him my five. Or you can make it awkward.

Paige C. Clark 33:41
So you mentioned something earlier that I want to go back to, and it was this idea of having a Monday faith and being a Monday Christian. Yeah, I care more about that.

Katie Axelson 33:54
Yeah. So being a Monday Christian is really just like believing what you say you believe on Sunday, also on Monday. And so it looks like your faith is showing up in your workplace. And it doesn’t need to be flamboyant and outgoing, and you don’t need to be sharing the gospel with the person sitting next to you on the airplane. I think we’ve already established that’s not my cup of tea. But it does look like still believing it on Monday. And so sometimes that looks like being like I can’t be part of that project because It doesn’t align with my values. I can’t be part of that project because it doesn’t align with my ethics. I would rather you ever.

Paige C. Clark 34:29
Yeah. And that. Yeah. Yeah, rally. Okay, I didn’t mean to cut you off because

Katie Axelson 34:37
I was fine. It’s fine. I can’t go into too many details about how I did it or what I did, but I do have to stand up for what I believe in that way.

Paige C. Clark 34:43
That’s amazing. Okay, keep going. Yeah, fascinated.

Katie Axelson 34:47
That’s okay. Um, so, yeah, just still believing what you believe and still acting like you believe what you believe and what that looks like and how you carry yourself, how you talk about your coworkers, how you talk to your coworkers. Um, do you believe in them? Do you believe in them doing their jobs? Well, can you support and encourage them? Even when it might be difficult? Like even when they got that promotion that you really wanted? Are you going to be the first person to congratulate them? Or are you going to give them a high five? Are you going to pray for them, whether they know it or not? I have been able to pray for coworkers at work, coworkers who don’t even believe what I believe. So, for example, one of my Jewish coworkers wasn’t feeling well. And he knew I was a Christian. I knew he was Jewish. But I still was like, Hey, would it be okay if I prayed for you? And he was like, Yeah, sure. And we didn’t have private space to have gone to, to pray. So I just asked him a lot of questions. And then I thought, Okay, well, what’s the common ground of our faith here? The common ground of our faith here is Yahweh God. So I just prayed to God to heal him. Yeah, you know, and I, Jesus, is the difference in our faith. And so I didn’t bring up Jesus in that in that particular conversation. While, of course, that is also who I’m praying to. I focused on the commonalities of our faith. Yeah, we just asked God to heal him. Amen. You know, and he did still end up going home sick that day, but he made it a lot further into the day than we thought he would. And so just being able to see moments like that is like, everyone knows that I’m a Christian. So sometimes faith questions just come up in the course of life. Yeah. And I’ve been the resource that they’re comfortable coming to. Yeah. And then it also looks like learning from them. There have been plenty of I don’t want to make this a polarized conversation here. But planning hasn’t been controversial over the last several years. Yeah. Especially living in Minneapolis. Right? Yeah. Which is where George Floyd was murdered. So like to be able to hear all these Christians saying, well, all lives matter. Why do you just say black lives matter? But then to actually sit down with someone to say, okay, yeah, all lives do matter. But it’s the black lives that we’re risking right now. And so, what does it look like to actually support our friends of color? Our black friends are whatever term that they prefer friends to support them in that, and I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I hadn’t thought about it that way. And so it’s the chance to sit down and actually learn from them. Which is actually where my podcast came out. And, um, the shameless plug was from a conversation like that. Yeah, it happened to be with a Jewish coworker about what it was like to be Jewish at Christmas time. And so I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, people need to hear this. Will you come to my show? I had just as a baby podcast. I did like three episodes yet. So I don’t even know what it was about. I was like; it’s about Jesus. Well, no, apparently, it’s not. I mean, it is, but it’s not. Yeah. And so I brought her on the show and was like, hey, talk about what it’s like to be Jewish at Christmas time in the month of December? How can we be respectful of your faith while art is right in your face, right? And so it’s made me more conscious and more aware of that. And now, almost 100 episodes later, we’ve talked to a lot of different people about how we can be more supportive of their perspective of their life story. And we’re not afraid to talk about the hard things. And I think that’s where it comes from. What does it look like to actually listen? Yeah. And there have been times in the show where I’ve wanted to contradict somebody because I don’t believe what they’ve said, or I feel like what they said is, is heretical or not supportive of Jesus, but I’ve had to sit there and go, Okay, I asked them to come on my show to share their perspective, I can’t ask them to come on my show to share their perspective and then tell them they’re wrong. They’re disrespectful. Yeah. So I just have to roll with it. And try to find, again, the common ground. So if somebody has said something that I don’t believe, I don’t believe 90% of it. But if I do follow the 10%, I will latch on to that 10%. And I will acknowledge, like, what they have said that I do actually believe and reinforce that. And then sometimes let the rest of it either roll off or be like, Oh, I have to think about that. So it’s I don’t want to say the show is the same way. I live my life. But it’s a very, like, similar mentality.

Paige C. Clark 38:49
Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say, like, it’s talking about your mindset that is kind of reflected in what you do in the podcast. Yeah. So in all of that, how do you cling to capital T, truth, and all of that, because I hear what you’re saying of like, okay, let’s find common ground and all that stuff. But at that, like, this is just like my own internal, like dissonance going on of like, okay, but there is absolute truth. And that’s not to say we shouldn’t hear the stories of those people. But how can we hear them and also proclaim absolute truth at the same time? Yeah.

Katie Axelson 39:33
I think it looks like admitting that we don’t know everything. And we don’t know what we don’t know. And that’s the beauty and hearing their story. So I start with listening to understand, asking questions to understand to hear their perspective. And then I take a look at, okay, what is God say? What does the Scripture say? What have I always believed? This is my interpretation of the Scripture. Like in alignment with the Scripture, I But what the Scripture has actually said? Or is it what I’ve always heard us talk about this Scripture? And sometimes I have to say, I don’t know. Like, Scripture can be interpreted in so many different ways. And I’m not saying like Unitarianism here, like, there’s one way, truth life, his name is Jesus. But also saying like, there are some things that I, people who read Scripture, interpreted differently than I do. For example, I had one of my good friends on the show who is a gay pastor. And I was like, Okay, help me understand. How do you read Scripture in alignment with what you believe in who you are? Helped me understand. And it was insightful to me, and I still have a lot of questions; there are still a lot of things that I don’t understand. But it’s not my job to tell him or anyone else that I think they’re wrong. That’s Holy Spirit’s job; I’m supposed to, like, hold myself to the standard that is true. And to love them and care for them the way that God would love and care for them. And let him handle the details of what that looks like. And that may not mean that I’m supporting everything that they’re doing. It may mean that I’m opting out, like I said earlier, like there have been work projects I’ve opted out of, and there have been social events that I’ve opted out of. Yes, I’m not supportive of that support of that. But at the same time, it’s like, well, what does it look like? What can I support? Yeah, yeah, I can support going to happy hour; I can show up at happy hour; I will not be doing three rounds of tequila shots where I’ll show up to a happy hour. Those kinds of things.

Paige C. Clark 41:22
Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. And yeah, I think to, like, just understand, man, I just like to want to go listen to these episodes because I’m, like, so curious. I’m like, oh, what? What did this pastor say in and about everything? And because I have heard kind of the full range of arguments and everything. I think my question to you, and this is getting, like, very theological. So like, stop me; I don’t want to go down this route. But where does it cut? Like, where does the Scripture, and the only reason why I’m bringing this up is because I like it was on top of my head yesterday. So in terms of like, when Scripture tells us to rebuke our neighbors, right, like, how do you balance that with like, like, it’s not them to it’s not my place to tell them that they’re wrong when Scripture does tell us to like to rebuke people.

Katie Axelson 42:18
Yeah. So I think it takes a look at, like, what is the context of that particular rebuke? And so, like, the one that I’m thinking of, oh, I wish I had a Bible within arm’s reach. I’ve got all these technology devices. And I don’t have a Bible here. But the one I’m thinking of is the one in the gospels, where Jesus is like, take it to the person and take it to the church, take it to the community, those types of things. That’s in the context of a community that has asked for that type of accountability. Being part of a church, I’m going to hold the coworkers that I go to church with to a different standard than I do; the coworkers that I don’t go to church with, or the coworkers who don’t go to church, I’m going to hold them to a different standard, I’m going to say, hey, I don’t know if you realize you did this. But that wasn’t cool. You know, the same way, I’m going to say, Hey, I saw Jesus and you in that moment. And that was awesome; well done. Because we have that relationship because we go to church together because we share our faith, my coworkers who don’t go to church don’t share their faith; I can’t hold them to the same standard that I hold myself to because they haven’t submitted to the authority. That is Jesus.

Paige C. Clark 43:17
Right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. I was just more so curious about the conversation with, like, a pastor; I was really, I’m just gonna have to go listen to that. Because well, and not out of like, you know, drama, curiosity. But also, I think that, like, I think Christians have a habit of shying away from what we would like to call the fringe examples when really, they’re not so fringe anymore. Sure. And I think that, like, there needs to be an element of leaning into that and having those conversations. Because again, they’re not like, again, you know, there are a plethora of people who are out there who think it’s okay or not okay to have a gay pastor like what you know, like, I know what I believe, and what Scripture has, has revealed to me about that, but again, it’s not a fringe example anymore. It is very unfriending. It is very commonplace.

Katie Axelson 44:32
Yeah, it’s one of those things that we’re like, sorry, Siri on my computer’s going off. Let me make her stop. Yeah, I know. You didn’t know I didn’t want to try again. It wasn’t even talking to you. Like, as I’m church hunting, that’s one of the things that I’m being attentive to. It’s like weird. Is this church stand? Are they affirming? Are they non-affirming? How do I feel about what they are affirming? How do I feel about what they’re not affirming? How do I feel about their approach to this conversation? That is, like you mentioned, every Where do we go? Yeah, um, and just kind of weighing it with both hands and also being like, it’s not an issue that directly affects me. But how can I love and support those? Does it directly affect you? Yeah, like, what’s going to be empowering to them? Whether I agree or not is not the issue here. The issue is going to be how we love them like Jesus. Mm-hmm.

Paige C. Clark 45:21
Yeah. And I think too, like, I mean, just working in a secular environment. I think that within the church, it might seem fringe, but within a secular environment is commonplace. And so I think that is why maybe I feel that there is a little bit of a gap in regards to maybe not necessarily, necessarily how we should handle it, but or like, not what we should believe about it, but how we should handle it because I’ve run into that issue so many times. And I’ve told this story on the podcast before of like, this, this coworker of mine, was talking, or alluding to the fact that he went and did a drag show, and openly asked to kind of like a, like a group chat who wants to see pictures. And I sat there, and I’m like, Okay, I don’t know how to respond. Sure, in a way that is honoring to God. And like, what he said about Scripture, or what he has said about, you know, gender and modesty and that whole route whole different. Yeah. And I was just like, how do I hold both at the same time? And but like, also, like, not be dismissive or ugly or hurtful to my coworker? Yeah. And honestly, the answer was, don’t say anything. Sure. That was my answer was paid. You’re not gonna say anything until you have a clear direction on what to say? Yeah, I didn’t say anything in that situation. Because I didn’t know, you know, what? The proper way to respond would be to that situation. And so yeah, that’s it. Let’s happen.

Katie Axelson 47:28
Yeah, it totally does. And let’s even pull it back to a less controversial topic. Let’s think about even swearing, right? Yeah. My coworkers have had fruity language. Yeah, um, I have never asked anyone not to swear in front of me. Right. But at the same time, a lot of them will realize that I’m in the room. And they’re like, sorry, I was like, what? Why? Yeah, it’s fine. You know, I will even pull out a well-placed swear word. At the right time, you know, it gets attention. But it’s still about, like, I don’t want to live like I think I’m above them. I don’t want them to feel like they have to change who they are simply because I’m here. Right. And so, while it’s not going to be very I

Paige C. Clark 48:11
want them to change, but not because of you.

Katie Axelson 48:14
Jesus, exactly. And it’s not going to be every other word coming out of my mouth ever. Right? But at the same time, like, sometimes it’s the right word. Yeah. So what does it look like to not expect to hold them to the same standard that Jesus holds me to? Because Jesus isn’t holding them to that standard right now? Because they don’t know Jesus? If they knew Jesus, he would be holding them to that standard. And I had a coworker who was like, I’m trying to clean up my language because I just met Jesus. Can you hold me accountable? I was like, Absolutely, I can. But until he had asked me that, I had no interest in policing his words. Yeah. Yeah. I

Paige C. Clark 48:47
I think that’s a great example. And I ran into the same exact thing where she said, like, one of my coworkers said something in a meeting, and I’m like, I didn’t even think to think thoughts about. I was just like, yeah, like, okay, and then she, like, messaged me individually and was like, I’m so sorry. I’m like, Yeah, I don’t care. Do you? Like yeah, I say it to, like, write it, hey, it happens, you know, and like, I ran into that issue a lot when I was in college and realizing, like, a lot of my friends tried to hide things from me because they knew I would disapprove. And I feel like that’s a whole other conversation on friendship. But yep, you know, it happens, and it’s very commonplace, but I think too, like, it is an opportunity to set yourself apart from the rest of the world. We’re supposed to be of this world and not in this world. And you know, your coworkers will hopefully strive to have more. I’m gonna say this word, but I’m like grossed out that like I’m more moralistic behavior is the best way I can Say it. Not only around you, but it does, like, think of it, you’re spending 40 hours a week, if you spend half that time with one coworker, you know, that’s 20 hours of the week that they’ve decided to make more to make better decisions in their life that is more aligning to ultimately the gospel.

Katie Axelson 50:23
Which is awesome. Yeah, absolutely.

Paige C. Clark 50:26
Oh, Katie, I love this conversation. Any final thoughts?

Katie Axelson 50:31
Oh, goodness. Um, no, I think we’ve covered a lot of where my thoughts were; I think it’s a matter of living, living well, and loving. Well, yeah, that’s kind of what it’s all about for me. Listen, well, live well, loved well, and came up with that right now. Actually, I might not need to use that smile.

Paige C. Clark 50:45
and say it again. Listen, well, live well, loved. Well, there you go. There you go further. We are. I always like to finish off the episodes by asking my guests. What is one thing that our listeners can do this week to implement a faith-based practice to help them grow in their faith?

Katie Axelson 51:03
Yeah. So I’m going to talk about an app that I downloaded recently called one minute pause. It’s from John Eldritch, which is so great. It is like a one-minute meditation. There are also three 510-minute meditations as well. And it will send you a reminder on your phone to take your pause. You can pick the time or can do whatever you want. And so it is that reminder to, like, take a step back to reconnect with the Lord throughout the day, too. It’s literally one minute if you already have your headphones in and Your call is finished. But no one knows that. Hey, guess what? You’ve got one minute to do your pause. And to just take that second to breathe.

Paige C. Clark 51:41
Yeah, I love it. So one minute pause. Yeah, I

Katie Axelson 51:44
I think it’s just called pause. Oh, pause.

Paige C. Clark 51:46
I love that. I had a boss one time who anytime a meeting finished early. He wouldn’t say, like, okay, like, you know, back to work. You’d be like, Oh, great. You got 15 minutes, go do something fun, like, use the 15 minutes we’re already accounted for. So there’s that for the one-minute pause. If you already have your headphones, I love it. Take the pause anyways. Right. Katie, thank you so much for joining us now. Where can people find you and your podcast and hear these awesome conversations?

Katie Axelson 52:14
Yeah, absolutely. So my internet home address is Katie axelsen.com. That’s 8x e l s o n. And then Instagram, same handle Katie Axelsen. Pretty difficult. I know. I do have a Facebook Katie Axelsson writer. I don’t know how often I update that. So probably not the best way to connect with me, but it does exist. And the podcast is called have hope will travel. You can find the link to it on my Instagram on my website, or it’s on your favorite podcasting app. Episodes usually come out every other Monday but are in the process of moving, so it’s kind of like they come when it’s a situation right now.

Paige C. Clark 52:47
I love it. I love it. Thank you so much, Katie, and we’ll catch you guys next week.

Katie Axelson 52:51
Awesome. Thank you

Paige C. Clark 0:42
Hello, hello, everyone. I am here with my great friend, Cindy. Cindy, how are you doing?

Cyndi Staudt 0:51
I’m great. Good. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 0:53
I’m so happy to have you. And I also like love the little things behind your head, like this picture from your book. And then also, like, this amazing little tote that we have that says your words matter is so great. Reminder, I

Cyndi Staudt 1:09
like to look at that every day. Yes, I

Paige C. Clark 1:11
actually have it on my like, on my Yeti. That’s awesome. My little your words matter sticker. So all good things. Can you introduce yourself a little bit to us?

Cyndi Staudt 1:22
Yes, my name is Cindy Stout. And I am a recently self-published author of a process in progress. Yeah, it’s nice to kind of see that all come to completion after all the work. Yeah. I, I do a lot of different things. Workwise, which I think we’re going to get into, I read, I say I retired a year and a half ago from what was my full-time career as a wellness coordinator to just pursue things that I’m passionate about. Yeah, and it’s just been awesome to see how God has kind of taken that and made sure that I’m financially covered and just continues to provide in so many ways. So

Paige C. Clark 2:06
that’s what’s so awesome. So tell us a little bit about the book. I know about it, but tell our listeners to share it.

Cyndi Staudt 2:16
So the book, like, I said, is called Princess in Progress. And it is about pursuing and proclaiming your identity in Christ. And it’s really the journey that I personally went on after my second divorce. And realizing I just had no clue who I was, I looked in the mirror and didn’t recognize the person. And God took me on a journey of searching the scriptures and seeing what he says about me. But then he had me write all these verses out into a biblical affirmation. And he told me I needed to say them to myself in the mirror every day until I believed them. And so that’s kind of the journey; I take people on just some of the things that I discovered during that journey. And I encourage them to do the same.

Paige C. Clark 3:02
That’s awesome. And how long have you been working on it?

Cyndi Staudt 3:05
Oh, gosh, it from start to finish? It probably about three years it took. Wow.

Paige C. Clark 3:09
Yeah. So just recently retired, meaning you are also writing and working on this while you’re also working?

Cyndi Staudt 3:17
Absolutely. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 3:19
Tell me. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that.

Cyndi Staudt 3:22
Yeah, so I started working on it probably about nine months before COVID happened. And as I was coming into the end of 2019, I was just praying and probably grumbling a little bit to God, like, I don’t have time, I have no time to write a book. And. And so then he coming into 2020, he was like, I want you to cancel your cable, your spare, you know, my Spectrum cable, he’s like, cancel that. So you have some time. I’m like, Okay, and so I did that and still wasn’t really making any progress. And I was just like, I’m just too busy thought I’m just too busy. And then COVID happen. And so I was working as a wellness coordinator for a large hospital system here in the Orlando area. And they had this; they called it redeployment during COVID. And so you sign an agreement, and they will pay you your normal pay. And you agree that if they need you somewhere else in this hospital system, within two days of them contacting you, you will go and work wherever they asked you to go work. I was like, Sure. So I mean, I’m a wellness coordinator. I’m not clinical. I’m not a nurse. There are not a whole lot of places they can use me, right? So I’m getting paid my normal pay, not having to work, and still not making progress in my book. I’m like, Okay, let’s look in the mirror and see. Oh, yeah, who was the problem here? It was really an interesting time with God and me, and it just hit me very tenderly, showing To me like, Okay, we have to make a plan to make this happen.

Paige C. Clark 5:03
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, like, really beautiful, too, because that’s God showing up and affirming what you were already working on. Right? Because, like, he allowed and made for those things to happen in the place, right? Like the resistance, no offense was within you. Exactly. Yes. And then God showed up. Right? Like,

Cyndi Staudt 5:37
like, I don’t have anyone else to blame anymore because it was, like, I was too busy with work. And then he took that, you know, and I’m like, at nighttime, I have to do all the things at home and then realize, Wow, I do spend a lot of time, like, even if I’m folding laundry watching TV, it’s like slow because I’m paying attention to the TV shows that away. And then oh, well, I’m, you know, I have all these things to do after work and, and then actually getting paid and not having to work. I was like, Oh, my, I don’t have any excuses. I have a lot of time, and I’m still not really making progress. So it was really good. to kind of get that settled.

Paige C. Clark 6:13
Yeah, I think I think as difficult as the past two and a half years have been for people, I think it was also kind of own an awakening for a lot of other people in, in so many different ways. For me, it was like a lot of about, like, being self-sustainable. And like, like, I got my garden going and like doing those things of just kind of getting back in touch with my roots. And then for other people like yourself, it was like, No, this is a time of freedom for you.

Cyndi Staudt 6:45
Yeah, and it really made me when I, when I went back to work, you know when they called us back. I only had to go into the office two days a week where I had to be there five days a week prior, but I realized, you know, I I really enjoy working from home, like, I wasn’t sure I would, but I was like, I really enjoy it. And once I got that sorted out with God, I realized I could be really productive. And when I need to, I can; I can leave home and go to a coffee shop or somewhere to work and get a change of scenery. And so I think that was just like the beginning of me realizing, like, I’m gonna be okay if I leave my job. Like, there are a lot of things I thought I needed from that job that I did.

Paige C. Clark 7:26
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think too, then when I talked to people, I say, they asked like, Oh, what do you do? And I’m like, hey, well, what answer do you want me to do? Oh, a lot. Oh, like, I can go down the list. Or I can give you the answer. You’re kind of expecting I can do either one. All right.

Cyndi Staudt 7:48
That’s me too.

Paige C. Clark 7:49
So tell me a little bit about your journey at work. And I also, like, I realize with all these conversations that I have on the podcast. I also like need to ask, like, Where Where did work fit in in terms of your faith journey? Meaning like, Did you come to Christ? And in this new workplace, have you always been a Christian in this workplace? Or what have you? What did that whole kind of landscape look like?

Cyndi Staudt 8:20
Right? I did find, like, I was brought up in Church, but I had no concept of really having, like, a personal relationship with Jesus until much later in life. And so I was saved before I started that job at the hospital. And it was interesting because going into that space and realizing, like not everybody is, right. And, and not everybody’s necessarily even receptive to you talking about it, or, you know, we’re having a company lunch, and I, I don’t ask everybody to pray with me, but I pray and realize that it makes people uncomfortable. So it was interesting to navigate that into; it’s really important to me that when people see me like that’s one of the first things they think of, oh, she’s a Christian, like she’s an authentic practicing, trying to walk the walk, which is the name of my ministry, someone that’s really trying to live out their faith. And I want people to know that, and so to be able to figure a way to make that known or in an atmosphere where maybe people are trying to keep that squashed a little bit, so yeah,

Paige C. Clark 9:37
and tell me like and educate me. I would tend to think that when like you’re you’re working in the medical field, you’re in hospitals to write. You said that, right? Yes. With hospitals. I would say faith is a little bit more appropriate in that setting. And correct me if I’m wrong. That’s like, that’s my stereotypical brain.

Cyndi Staudt 10:04
But I think that people these days are so worried about offending people. Hmm. Right. And so in organizations like that it, you know, large organizations, they’re, you know, they’re very concerned with making sure that everybody’s equally represented. And you know that we’re not showing favoritism one way or another. And so I think they’re just a little bit more sensitive to things like that. Which, you know, I understand, I guess, like, that’s the law and sunrise like they have to make sure that but like I said, like, it was really important to me to make sure that, you know, if somebody talks about Cindy, the number one thing they should mention is her face. So that’s because that wasn’t that way. Like, I have a history of drug abuse and drug addiction; I actually overdosed three times and woke up twice in the emergency room with the same emergency room nurse. And so, like, I was known for being one way. And now and I wanted to make sure that people not only saw the change but knew why there was; there was a moment when God, after I had gotten saved, I was a manager of a gym, and one of my employees came in to work on her day off, and she was sitting in the office and just kind of slumped in her chair. And it was like, What are you doing here? Why are you here on your day off, she started talking about some issues she was having at home, and she said, you know, you wouldn’t understand you’ve got your life altogether. And God, like, really convicted me at that moment. Like, you have to let people know, you know, where I brought you from, and that it was me that did it, and that I can do it. So

Paige C. Clark 11:48
that’s that. Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I think, too, that’s maybe one of the buckets that Christians kind of get put in is, is, you know, you have your whole life to get. I’ve lost friends over that before of people who think that my life looks perfect and ideal, and, you know, what have you and of course, you know, social, but it was a close friend, it was a close friend of mine and our friendship suffered because that was her impression of me when really that’s not true. For those listening. Cindy and I were just talking about how my husband is recovering from an operation to remove a cancer tumor. So I promise you life’s not perfect here. But yeah, that is a struggle. And I think to do that; I always struggle with allowing myself to be accessible to those people. And, you know, not people who would maybe fear speaking up in that regard, that that gal who was sitting in your office, you know, like that for I think for other people, that might be a fearful thing to say to someone, right? Like, your life looks perfect. That’s like, that’s a pretty bold statement to make this someone else, you know, right? Yeah. And so being able to have kind of that openness without glamorizing it, I guess, Yeah, is what I struggle with, too. So, what did it look like in your most recent job? What did it look like, kind of, practically for you? You know, you were talked about this woman who, you know, came to your office, and in you’re able to minister to her. But kind of on the I actually say, that’s probably like a fringe example; correct me if I’m wrong, like that doesn’t happen every day. That would be beautiful. It has if it happened every day, yes, it would be awesome. But what does kind of like the day-to-day look like for you in terms of practicing your faith?

Cyndi Staudt 14:19
So in that, in that job at the hospital, I just took every opportunity that I had to get my faith out there. So like, I’m known now for this mug that says, crazy about you. It’s actually the tagline for my Church, and they sell products. And so I just carried that everywhere we went our peak, we would come into a meeting, and people would say, Gosh, you’re always in a good mood, you know, and I’m like, That’s Jesus. That’s just the Jesus in me. And so, you know, it’s not that I was necessarily evangelizing, but I was giving the credit in the glory where, where it was due. And then there’s a scripture Titus 210, that says that we’re supposed to make the teachings about Jesus look attractive to others. And so I really, a few years ago, kind of took that to heart like, Am I making Jesus look attractive so that people that don’t know him want to know Him? And yeah, I tried to live that out and the way I did my job and the way I treated others, and, you know, if people started kind of grumbling or talking about other employees, I was like, Hey, let’s, you know, I tried to not be ashamed to just say, hey, let’s, let’s not talk about someone else, you know, that’s not here, and just really try to authentically live out the Gospel.

Paige C. Clark 15:44
That’s beautiful, too, because, like, I have so many things going on in my mind off of that, because I think to make Jesus look, you know, attractive and what he teaches attractive to people, I don’t want people to hear that and think, like, watering down the Gospel like that. That’s not what I think you’re saying. No, it’s; it’s more so making it approachable, right? And if you have kind of this humility, and you’re kind of walking in the way, hopefully, people want to walk the same way.

Cyndi Staudt 16:28
Right. And, you know, during that time I was there, I actually lost both of my parents. And so, you know, a lot of, like, the close coworkers, but even some of the, you know, in the larger organization saw me again, like, walk through the both of those processes. And, and I always just thought, like, you know, like, of course, I mourn them. But I also knew they were with Jesus. So there’s, like, Well, they both had cancer; I’m like, thank goodness that they’re not suffering anymore. They live full lives. They knew they were elderly. And, and so when people would ask, I was, you know, I’d be like, Yes, I missed them. But I would go on and tell them all the reasons why I could be joyful and I was happy. And I think that that’s, like, one of those ways we make Jesus attractive is that we handle normal life. Circumstances and problems, and issues in a different way with ideas from the lens of hope. And then the lens of Jesus.

Paige C. Clark 17:29
Yeah, yeah. And I ran into that with, with my husband, and his recent diagnosis of there was the human fear, just like, have the process, I guess. But God told me, months before this happened, that everything was going to be okay. And so I was talking to one of my best friends. And she goes, I was a little worried about how effective you were. Because you were, like, so chill about it. And I was like, you know, that doesn’t make me love my husband any less. But it helps me have as much hope in Jesus as I’m supposed to. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think when we’re able to model that out, it can reflect Jesus in a way that is helpful to people. And it’s funny when you said, making Jesus attractive, I immediately went to, like, kind of the beautifying of Scripture that’s happening. Like that’s where my mind went. And I was like, yes, because you also help write for seasonally present, which is one of the magazines that I am producing. And one of the kinds of core truths that I hold for this magazine is that it is imperfect but beautiful. And you know, you look at magazines right now, and you just see these, like, cookie-cutter kind of things that are like really, like, that’s nice, but that’s not me. Again, everything’s retouched and whatnot. But I just wanted it to be like, Yeah, this is, you know, it might be imperfect, but I still want it to be attractive and beautiful because I think that God created beauty on purpose.

Cyndi Staudt 19:32
Oh, yeah. And then him, and I mean, just the picture he paints for heaven. We know that beauty matters to him.

Paige C. Clark 19:42
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I mean, beauty is even talked about in Scripture and, and I think, correct me if I’m wrong, and I can’t pull the exact Scripture, but I know that there are some verses where it says said like, A woman would be blessed with beauty, or God blessed her with beauty. And so, you know, beauty is okay. So if you’re listening to this and you’re like, I feel like I’m too, you know, superficial, whereas there’s a line there, but also God honors beauty as well. I don’t know why that was important to me today. Yeah, but it’s true. Yeah. So take me through a little bit of, like, a life in Cindy, a day in the life of Cindy when it came to. Kind of your routine and your float. I’m sorry. Do you have kids?

Cyndi Staudt 20:40
I don’t, Okay. Two cats. Two cats. Okay. I’m divorced and single with two cats.

Paige C. Clark 20:48
Gotcha, gotcha. Because this always changes the conversation to have, like whether or not you have kids, I don’t have kids. So like, my life looks very different than my neighbor’s. Do they have kids? Yeah. So what does a day in the life of Cindy look like?

Cyndi Staudt 21:05
Yeah. So you know, when I retired from that full-time position, like, like you said, when people ask what I do, I do a lot of things as my Jamaican friends tell me, like I’m an honorary Jamaican because I have so many jobs. So day in the life of me, most of my mornings, I get up, and the first thing I do is Bible study. So I start the day with God. I would say on 80% of the days; I do my Bible study before I even touch my phone. And that’s really important because I realized, like, I get really tied up in that. So I tried to make that a focus. But I always start my day in the world in some way. Some days, I have a longer time, like I might have an hour and a half. On other days, it might be 20 minutes. But I have to start there; I absolutely notice a difference if I don’t, in how I approach the day and how I’m able to handle the day. It’s kind of like the hangry people when they don’t eat; I get that way when I don’t know, life and morning. I’m much more enjoyable to be around when I’ve met with Jesus first.

Paige C. Clark 22:14
Yes, I love it.

Cyndi Staudt 22:18
Yeah. And so then my mornings, one of the things I do to earn an income is teaching fitness classes and doing personal training. So most of my mornings are filled up with either teaching classes or training clients. And then I’ll come home and get into some of the other things that I do. So I am a content writer for a nonprofit that does work in South Africa. So I couldn’t do any writing that I had to do for them. I am a life coach and mentor for survivors of trafficking and domestic violence. So if I have sessions scheduled there, I’ll do those sessions. And, then, I do my working on additional books and coaching clients just kind of for myself, so I’ll do that.

Paige C. Clark 23:10
Wow, busy. And what does your kind of involvement in your local Church look like? And how do you make sure to kind of prioritize that?

Cyndi Staudt 23:24
Yeah, so I’ve been at my Church, my current Church, for about 11 years. And before that, I was at a nearby church. I was a youth leader there. So I was in youth ministry. When I came to this Church, it was after my divorce. And I got involved in women’s ministry, which I had not been involved in before. And about, I would say, a year and a half ago, they kind of did away with women’s ministry. They’re focusing more on just life groups, like they want people to have small groups and homes. And so we used to gather as women on Monday evenings. First, it used to be every Monday evening. Then, after COVID, it was once a month on Monday on Monday evening. And then we had a one-day retreat, which actually was really well attended, with almost 300 people. And then, after that, they kind of stopped women’s ministry. So I mean, I still attend Church there. Before COVID, I had started a women’s Facebook group for our Church. And my goal with that was to actually just bring women together virtually, but I have never been great with technology. So until COVID happened, all I really did was post here and there. And then COVID happened, and it was literally the women’s ministry leader at that time, the day they shut everything down, but like we got to start doing online, you know, Bible studies through Facebook, let’s go and like, it was like God, like, pushed me out of the nest. And so I started we still do a weekly morning devotional through that Facebook group. Have we just finished going through my books? So we do book studies online. And I always invite people to come to my house if they want to, but everybody just does Zoom now. So I stay involved that way. Even though we don’t have a formal women’s ministry at our Church, I try to keep the women unified a little bit through that Facebook group and page. So that’s kind of my serving, I say, my serving aspect; I think that would be maybe where I find the most challenge. Like, even though I know I’m serving in that capacity and what I do there, yeah, I feel like it’s not really serving. I don’t know why. And so I always have this, like, I guess it’s the enemy. I always have this guilt, like, I’m not doing enough to serve at my local Church. But you know, I’m still doing that group. And I will continue to do it. Because it’s a passion of mine. So yeah,

Paige C. Clark 25:57
I love that. And in terms of I haven’t asked this question before on the podcast, but I’m just kind of curious. So what do you say? What could Church Capital C do as a whole to help? Better minister to or support? People? I call them the normal people, the people who go to work every day, you know, the people who because you have a lot of, like, moms groups, and you have a lot of, you know, you have like, I don’t know, my Church has like men’s breakfast on Saturday morning. And I’m like, Yeah, that’s like all good. But like when it comes to, I guess, educating and mentoring and ministering to people who likelihood they work a full-time job as adults. Like, I feel like that’s kind of a gap, which is, in part, why I started this podcast, but right, you know, I think, like, it can also stem from the church community. So I’d love to hear your thoughts about that.

Cyndi Staudt 27:14
Yeah, I, I mean, one thing, I think we talked about this, and right at the writer’s community is like, if you want to know how you can serve people ask them, right? And I feel like sometimes the big C church will just make decisions without maybe consulting the people they’re making the decisions for. And I kind of think of the women’s ministry, when I at my Church, when I think about that, like women just love to get together, that face to face, like, we’re just that way. And so I know that a lot of women still struggle with the fact that we don’t do that as a group. So I think checking in with those who work like we have these prayer nights, we have actually one coming up; it’s a prayer and worship night at Church. It starts at 630. And that’s, I, in my opinion, especially like with traffic and people getting home and trying to eat and if you have kids trying to get kids, but that’s a that’s really a long shot at getting by 630. And I, I kind of, you know, I made a comment on the post about the event. I’m like, Hey, like, I personally teach till seven class till 715 on Wednesday nights. Yeah, I can’t make it. And, you know, I said, Hey, how long is it gonna go? Well, it’s only gonna go till eight. So I couldn’t get there. Maybe by 730. Suppose I push it and make half a half an hour of it, yeah. But I and then a couple of other people commented, like, yeah, till I get home from work. And it’s like, a lot of people just kept commenting the same thing. And so, and I know the same thing, like at our Church, they have once a month, they call it the gathering. And it was to replace the women’s knights and the men’s knights and things that we used to have. And it’s this gathering where they come together once a month on a Wednesday, and they try to get people connected. So they can start small groups, while again, I tell them, as I teach on Wednesday nights, every Wednesday night, if I am even to try to come to one of those, I would have to get coverage for my class. My work. And so it’s not a realistic, you know, force, even someone like me. And then I think about, you know, health care workers or we have I’m, you know, I’m around the theme parks, so we’ve got universal and Disney and stuff. So people have weird schedules, and you know, never they have days off and things like that. So, really, I think reaching out to the people that you want to serve and ask them like, yeah, would you like to see would you know, would you want something starting at eight o’clock at night? Do you want an early morning? Do you want lunchtime? Do you want a weekend? What would you like and really, Uh, you know, seeking out the input of the people that you are looking to serve?

Paige C. Clark 30:05
Yeah. I think you said a lot of good things there. And I, I don’t want people listening to think that like church ministries have to be geared towards everyone because you’re never like I work in PR. That’s, that’s a rule of thumb. You’re never gonna please everyone always like, that’s, that’s a general rule. But I think Cindy, and correct me if I’m wrong, but like, it’s more so just a general consensus. And you, you touched on a really important thing of, like, the community in which you live, right? Like, you’re, you’re with people who a lot, you know, a lot of the members of Church might work at the theme parks and have weird hours just because they live like, like I could imagine places out here, there’s kind of more industrial areas that have like a ton of warehouses, where I’m like, okay, like, how can you take people’s jobs into consideration when you’re building up this community and building church programs, and ministering to these people? Well, right,

Cyndi Staudt 31:10
that’s, yeah, that would probably be like shiftwork kind of like at the hospital. Yeah, if you’re not warehouses and factories and things like that. People have these set different schedules.

Paige C. Clark 31:20
Yeah. And also, like, if any of them are truckers, right, like, they’re, they’re going to be on the road a lot. And, you know, and I know, for it changes, depending on the size of your church community, but like, so for my Church, for example, I think they do a pretty fair, good job of, of making sure that there’s something kind of spanning the week. So we have, I don’t know, at any one point, like eight or ten classes going, I go to a pretty big church, like eight or ten classes going, and they’re all at different times of the week on different days. Some are in the morning, some are in the afternoon, some are in the evening, you know, and these, they ride that entire scope of time, because I’m like, Yeah, you know, they they have identified I, I would like to think it is intentional. But I identify that, like, hey, not all women can come to noon on Tuesday Bible study because those women might work to write. So I think, yeah, just knowing your audience, it’s a mark. It’s such marketing, and we talked about it in writing groups to know your audience, know your audience, and also just ask them.

Cyndi Staudt 32:40
Yeah, yeah. And I said, I, I know that my Church has a vision, and so on, understanding that maybe it’s not my preference that we don’t do women’s ministry anymore. But I’m not going to leave the Church because they’re not serving women the way I think they showed, like they Yeah, they absolutely have their vision that they have their plan, they can’t serve everybody, and do it well. And so I just kind of roll with it. But yeah, if they, you know, if they are looking to serve a specific group, they should definitely seek their input and find out what would what might work best for them. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 33:19
For me. Not necessarily that, like, oh, every, you know, sermon needs to be geared towards the working person. But I think that we talk a lot about family and home life and maybe missions and giving and serving. But how much of that conversation includes your work days? Right? Because I would argue to sail a lot it like, all those things are very important. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying we should skip over talking about having gotten your family. Right. That’s important. But we work almost more than we see our family during the week. And I think that you know, there need to be hard conversations had about, you know, how to balance it all and how to just have enough energy, emotionally and physically and otherwise, to get up and go to Church and serve and volunteer and take your kids and all of that stuff.

Cyndi Staudt 34:35
Right? Yeah, for sure. We spend so much time at work that even more and more like that, I don’t think of a right straight 40 Hour Workweek. There are a few people that probably have that, like most people, are working more than 40 hours. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 34:50
And I mean, I would say like I know very many people who have worked in full-time ministry in it Church, and y’all work your butts off too. But I will also add it comes with its own struggles and its own pickups. That is different than the working man, the nine-to-fiver. Right over there because y’all work weekends. And you know, you might have, I think some people do like, either we have Church on Saturday or Sunday. So I think people do Friday and Monday off or Monday and Tuesday off or, you know. However, it shakes out, but that’s different. That’s, again, that’s not the majority of people; I would argue to say the majority of people work for someone else. Right. So I always like this question because I think it’s hard and convicting. And also, I want people to know that, like, we’re not perfect, and like, as Christians, we struggle to; what would you say is your biggest struggle when it comes to practicing your faith?

Cyndi Staudt 36:05
I think for me; it’s because I’m single. And I do, you know, a lot of Bible study and stuff on my own. It’s finding community and practicing and Bible and doing Bible study and things with a community. It’s just it’s so much easier for me to get up and do it on my own. And then, when it strikes me, I sometimes will do it right before bed. So it’s easier for me to say, Well, I’m still in the Word, and I’m still going to Church. So I have to really be intentional and kind of tell myself that I love it when I’m doing group stuff. But it’s sometimes it’s like, it’s just easier for me to do it by myself.

Paige C. Clark 36:56
Yeah. And sometimes, like, I have a little bit of anxiety brain. And so sometimes, like, my brain makes it a lot bigger than it actually is, is kind of like going to the gym where you, like, Dread all the way up to it. And then you get it over with, and you’re like, okay, like, it really wasn’t that bad. Right? I had the same feelings when we had just a regular recurring kind of small group going on with, with some folks from our Church, and I had, like, I dread it. Like, at the end of my day. I don’t want to be social. I just want to go to bed and lay in bed and watch movies. But at the end of it, I like, I’ve never walked away from a home grouping like, oh, well, that was a waste of my time. Right?

Cyndi Staudt 37:40
I’ll never get that time back. Yeah, no, it’s never like that. But like you said, like, at the end of the day, you know, my morning? Well, most of my day, most of the things I do, like I’m teaching classes, so I’m talking all the time. I’m personal training people, you know, so I’m talking, explaining, correcting, I’m coaching because I’m like talking, talking, talking all day long. And sometimes I’m like, just don’t want to talk anymore, even if it’s about the Word I don’t want to do anymore. So yeah, so sometimes it’s like, I just want to go to bed, but you always feel better when you’ve done, yeah,

Paige C. Clark 38:08
see, I have the opposite problem where I’m like; I have to force myself to talk to people during the day. Because if I don’t, I’m not talking to anyone. Oh, well, like, my husband can’t currently talk. So now I really can’t talk. But, like, he’s often talking back, yeah, like, we’ve been texting a lot. Hey, it works. It works. But like he’s off in his office, I’m up in here in my office. We don’t have kids. We don’t live with anyone else. And I realized I’m like; there are some days I don’t even like going out. That has since changed since I blew my garden. But, like, there was a time, especially over COVID, Like, where I’m like, go outside today. I should probably change that. Or like I didn’t talk to anyone today. I should probably change that. Yeah, to work on that. I realized when I went started going to social events after the whole COVID thing happened, my voice would get sore. Like I am not used to. Right. I’m not used to talking about this. That’s awesome. Because I was working from home. I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t, you know, working with other people and all that stuff. And that’s, that’s yeah, that’s my opposite thing. But I could hear how you were talking all day. Not only like does that get tiresome, but it’s also harder to kind of like quiet and decompress after all of it. Right? Because you just kind of want to keep going. Yeah.

Cyndi Staudt 39:48
Back when I was married, I would get home, and, you know, my ex-husband would be like how was your day? I’m like, it was good. He’s like, That’s all you got. I’m like; I don’t want to talk anymore.

Paige C. Clark 40:00
And that’s huge and recognizing that as, like, your own boundary and, like, if you are married or if you have roommates or whatever, it is like being able to kind of communicate that boundary to them of like, Hey, this is like a limitation that I have right now like, and being able to not necessarily ignore their need to decompress from the day, but finding a solution between the two of those things,

Cyndi Staudt 40:36
right. Maybe I need a little timeout first. Yeah, yeah. But you know, it’s funny that when God had me, like, get rid of my cable and stuff, I realized that living alone, I would come home and just put the TV on and just to have somebody, like, some sound, because I didn’t have anybody at home to talk to, then yeah, it did serve as a distraction. And I realized, like, maybe because I’m talking all the time for work. Like I get used to having sound all the time when God, as he says, Is still. I can’t hear him. If I’m in, there’s constantly another input coming in, whether it’s my voice or someone else’s voice; as you have, I have to have times of quiet and silence.

Paige C. Clark 41:25
Yeah. And I realized I read something; I can’t remember where I read it. But would I wish I could remember, so I could give the person credit? But it was saying how you get to know the voices around you. And like, you know, your spouse’s voice, you know, your friend’s voice or whatever. And it is because you have spent time listening to them. And so, if you’re having a hard time hearing God’s voice, how much time have you spent listening to him? And that, like, really shook me; I was like, if, yeah, like that heads?

Cyndi Staudt 42:06
Yes. And I, you know, there was a time, there have been church homes where they, you know, there’s the philosophy that, you know, women can’t teach men or almost right, you know, men are kind of above us in the hierarchy, patriarchy. And so for a long time, I had this doubt when I would, you know, I’d be in my quiet time, and I’m journaling and getting stuff from God. And then I’d be like, oh, like, what’s that from you? And then, you know, sometimes it was the same day, I’d go to Church, and the pastor would speak it from the stage, and I’m like, oh, yeah, okay, that was you, God. And I wouldn’t believe it until it was validated by someone else. I got it that I was hearing from him until it was validated by someone else. And so I had this time, about a year and a half ago, where God really kind of solidified that for me like, Listen, I’m speaking to you. Yes. You know, my voice. You’ve confirmed it enough times now, like that. Do you hear my voice?

Paige C. Clark 43:06
Yeah. Yeah. And save you some of the lag time? Yes, I guess. And just getting God to move at the moment. And yeah, that’s huge. I think too, like, for me, when it comes to hearing God’s voice. It’s very, like, absolute. I’m writing a devotional right now. And it’s like, if you have to ask if it’s God for God’s voice, it probably isn’t. Like, if you question it, then you’re like, okay, that, like, God’s voice is absolute, at least in my brain and how he talks to me. So Right. Yeah, send me this has been lovely. I always like to wrap up with one final question for our listeners. And that is what is one faith-building practice that they can implement into their life this week to move them closer to God.

Cyndi Staudt 44:04
I think I like talking about my own experience in my own life that I had to make the choice to make my faith a priority. Whether it was my quiet time with him going to Church, you know, that weekly commitment to actually get in the car and go to Church and not get lazy and just listen from home every week. But I had to make it a priority. And there was a time when I coach people through this all the time, like I literally had to put it in my calendar and block off the time and say, like, this is my time. This is my time, and it’s an appointment that I have to keep, like it’s an appointment with my boss. He’s that he’s even a bigger boss, right? But right now, it’s just a habit. Like I get up and do my Bible study first thing in the morning. But we have to make that choice. Like God wants to spend time with us, but He doesn’t force us And that whole scenario of me like, I don’t have time, I don’t have time, like, I just was choosing not to make time. You know, and we make time and make time for the things that are important to us. And so I would just encourage, like, find a moment, find five minutes in every day that you can get with God if it’s a commute to work. I mean, the whole podcast, like a revolution, is amazing. Yeah. I just went away to did like a five and a half hour drive to visit a friend. And it was five and a half hours each way. Like, I just like to binge a couple of different podcasts. So yeah, and I remember when I had to go after war after COVID to, had to go back to work. I was working in an office that was about seven miles from me; after COVID, they made me go into downtown Orlando, which, like 22 miles, but like, it could be an hour and a half, depending on right. I was, I was not happy. I would come in just grumbling. And I was like, You know what? I need to, like, I’d listen to worship music, but it wasn’t doing it. And so I started listening to sermons on my way to Church. They just got me focused and got me in the right frame of mind before I got there. So, I was making use of that time, and I was just hearing from God that whole time.

Paige C. Clark 46:19
Yeah, that’s super special. When I had to commute long hours, I would always do phone calls to family. I would always call my husband; I would call my grandma, call my mom, call my sisters, and just talk to them because it was, like, an hour-and-a-half drive.

Cyndi Staudt 46:34
Yep, I used to. I would when my parents were alive. I would always call them when I was driving. Yeah, I would call my dad’s like, what do you do and driving like? Yep. Have you been on speaker? Let’s talk.

Paige C. Clark 46:46
That’s wonderful. Cindy. Thank you so much. Now where can people find you and find your book and give us all the deets?

Cyndi Staudt 46:53
Yeah, so my book is available on Amazon. It’s Princess in progress, pursuing and proclaiming your identity in Christ. I can be found on Instagram and Facebook. I use Facebook mostly, but I’m also on Instagram. It helps that when you post to Instagram, it goes to both, which kind of streamlines that process. And then, I have a business page that is walking the walk ministries, and it’s helping women to pursue an authentic and thriving walk with Christ. Walking the Walk Ministries is also on Instagram and Facebook.

Paige C. Clark 47:28
I love it. Thank you so much. I really am for having it’s been awesome. I love it. So go and prioritize God this week. Thanks for joining us. If you liked what you were listening to, make sure you subscribe and hit those five stars, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.

Paige C. Clark 0:41
Hello, hello everyone. I hope you’re having a wonderful day. I am excited to be here with you and one of my friends Mark David Poland. How are you doing today, Mark?

Mark David Pullen 0:52
I’m doing well. Thank you. How are you today?

Paige C. Clark 0:54
I am fabulous. It is hot. And I have my iced tea. Iced tea is my crutch during the summer. Because if it weren’t, I would drink an absurd amount of Diet Coke.

Mark David Pullen 1:06
Okay,

Paige C. Clark 1:09
I see it is my safe haven, and I drive absurdly far to get good iced tea to really what’s absurdly far, like a half hour each way. Oh, that’s

Mark David Pullen 1:21
Not too bad. I would have

Paige C. Clark 1:23
like an hour out of my day to get like $1 But

Mark David Pullen 1:28
I don’t. I drive that for a good cup of coffee. I don’t know if a half hours of thirdly far.

Paige C. Clark 1:33
Okay. I mean, objectively, I’ve had people like hardcore judgment you for, like, our little round trip area, to go get like two containers of iced tea.

Mark David Pullen 1:44
No, no judgment here.

Paige C. Clark 1:47
Well, much appreciated. So Mark, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? And what do you do, and what you’re about? Sure.

Mark David Pullen 1:56
My name is Mark David Pullen. I am a full-time building maintenance worker. Full-time Father, full-time husband, and aspiring full-time author

Paige C. Clark 2:06
as a lot of full-time jobs, Mark. Yes, it is.

Mark David Pullen 2:09
Yeah. And some of those hats never come off some of our building maintenance hats. I can hang that one up at 330. But the father and husband know those hats seem to work their way on and off the head. All throughout the day.

Paige C. Clark 2:21
Yeah. And even when you’re at work, you’re still husband and father. Yes,

Mark David Pullen 2:25
Absolutely. Especially when your wife is a teacher in the district you work in, and your kids go to school in the district you work in. So yeah,

Paige C. Clark 2:32
that’s cool. Yeah, that’ll do it. I always say so, me and my husband. We don’t have kids yet. And when people talk to me about it, I’m like, listen, I like kids. I adore my nephew and soon-to-be nice. But once you’re a parent, you’re not a parent ever again.

Mark David Pullen 2:53
You’re absolutely right. I

Paige C. Clark 2:54
am not ready.

Mark David Pullen 2:57
Because my mother always told me that you like you need to sleep a good night’s sleep. Because when you become a parent, like that phone could ring at two in the morning and you have to answer when you’re the parent. And I remember we were in the hospital getting ready for my son to be born, and my mom was like, this is the last good night’s sleep you’re ever going to get. She’s like, and it’s going to be a rough night. So you need to savor this. And she was 100%. Right? I don’t think I’ve slept well in five years, six years.

Paige C. Clark 3:22
I’m just dropping hardcore truths, right? But like, I’m like, even after, like, once, they go away for college or like on their own. You’re still a parent. Yeah, you’re not a parent ever again. So that’s my go-to line is like, I’m like good until I’m ready to be not never not apparent again. So you always wear that parent hat.

Mark David Pullen 3:47
Yeah, I get it. I understand. 100%.

Paige C. Clark 3:52
So tell me a little bit about your job.

Mark David Pullen 3:55
Well, like I said, I’m a full-time building maintenance worker for a local school district. And that’s pretty much all the excitement there is. I go in and move snow when it snows out. I go in and cut the grass when the grass needs to be cut. And then everything in between.

Paige C. Clark 4:11
Gotcha. Do you work on a team of people?

Mark David Pullen 4:14
I do. I’m one of six maintenance guys.

Paige C. Clark 4:16
Okay, for the whole district? Yes. Is that like too many people or too few people? Ah,

Mark David Pullen 4:23
I think we’re good. We’ve got three buildings we cover. I think I think we’re pretty good.

Paige C. Clark 4:32
That’s not bad. That’s not too shabby. Yeah, sometimes I’m like, it’s like it’s either like one way or the other. But like you’re hearing, something properly staffed is always a good thing.

Mark David Pullen 4:42
Yeah, I feel I feel like we’re good. I really do. Everybody has their own thing that they’re good at. So we’re a pretty good team. We’re more of a well-oiled machine, I’d say

Paige C. Clark 4:52
any, and you also mentioned snow which is like a foreign concept to me where I’m just like, oh yes, knows that schools such as Just in other places,

Mark David Pullen 5:02
And that’s one of those things all the teachers laugh at us on the way out the door. Haha, see it? Not tomorrow because we’ll be open. It’s no one’s like yeah, we’ll be here. But

Paige C. Clark 5:11
still shoveling that snow. At least, I hope you have more than a shovel.

Mark David Pullen 5:19
Thank God, knock on wood; we have more than a shovel. And you know, I thought we were gonna get away. Get away. Pretty good this year. But in the last three weeks, I think we were in for more snow removal than we had been the whole entire winter thus far. Yeah, my gosh. That’s great. We thought we thought we had skated by, and then all of a sudden, here we are, you know, every weekend movies now.

Paige C. Clark 5:41
Is there still snow on? Oh, no, no, no, no. Okay.

Mark David Pullen 5:44
We’re good. Thank God. No,

Paige C. Clark 5:46
I know. I know. Like up is in the mountains like it. There is still open. I think it’s still snowing up there.

Mark David Pullen 5:55
We’ve had snow this late in the year, but this year, thankfully not.

Paige C. Clark 5:58
Thank goodness. Wow, we’re really stereotypical and talking about the weather. I was like, Yeah, we actually talked about the weather, which is like really common for people who like to know I’m in Phoenix because then they’re like, oh, it’s really hot there, isn’t it? I’m like, Yes. Like It’s Hot. Like,

Mark David Pullen 6:18
That’s the good seasons, the hot ones. Everybody likes the hot season. No,

Paige C. Clark 6:23
not 120 degrees, like, Yeah, it’s funny, though, because we make national news. And I’ll have, like, my dad calling me to be like, Hey, I saw Phoenix is on the news. Are you okay? I’m like, Yes. I also have air conditioning and cold water. We’re gonna be here, apparently. Yeah, apparently, our heat waves make national news. Cool. So what does a day in the life look like a day a week, kind of how you move throughout your day and spend time with the family and do the husband duties and all of that good stuff?

Mark David Pullen 7:00
Well, a day at work. Really, the beautiful part about my job is that it’s different every day; there’s no way to settle into a routine because you could think you’re cruising into an easy day, and then the phone rings, and all of a sudden, you’re up to your elbows and could be anything you just you never know. So it’s eight hours of that. And then then I clock out at 330. My wife gets done at about 315. So we have the luxury. I live we live seven minutes from where we work. So we get to carpool. We carpool every day, we meet at the truck, we go pick up the kids, and that’s when the evening starts. You know, that’s when real life for me standards I should, you know, it’s pick up the kids, it’s dinner, how was your day working on homework, you know, family stuff, Dad stuff, you know, some you know, some nights, I got to cut the grass, some nice things have to get done. But we try to do as much as we can as a family. You know, that’s what’s really very important to me, incorporating as much as I can. With them. Yeah. So

Paige C. Clark 8:06
and how do you kind of fit in? Like, what is your involvement with your church community look like? You know, are you guys involved in any way? Is your do you do it on your own? You know, what’s that look like? For you?

Mark David Pullen 8:24
Sure. We actually just became new members two weeks ago to a new church that we have been going to for a little over a year. So we’re excited about that. Yeah. You know, great kids programs, Sunday mornings, you know, super excited about that. And it’s we’re looking forward to what’s ahead. For us, with that, in always, it’s always exciting to find a place where you can put your roots down and call home, and we’re very excited about that. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 8:50
Yeah. And what does kind of like is it just Sunday for you guys? Or is it throughout the week or what?

Mark David Pullen 8:59
Right now? Right now, it’s just Sunday. We are. Actually, we’re about 50 minutes from okay. So, you know, by the time we get out of work and get things situated, we’re pretty whole for during-the-week stuff, but actually, eventually, we would like for them to be a little more flexible there. And that’s kind of gold we’re working towards, but for right now, yeah, it’s Sunday mornings.

Paige C. Clark 9:22
Yeah. So tell me a little bit about, like, what your one-on-one time looks like with God, and how do you find the time with everything that you have going on to make sure that you spend that intentional time with God?

Mark David Pullen 9:38
Sure. Um, one of the things that I like to do is throughout my day, even though it can get crazy, you know, a lot of people’s jobs can get crazy. I like to seek quiet moments. You know, there are pauses, you know, there are breaks in the day where you can kind of shift in autopilot, and you can keep going and charging ahead, but your, you know, your body’s doing the work your brain is allowed to wanderer, and I really, it’s in those quiet moments that God speaks to me and that we can have that time to just kind of sit. And, you know, be inspired. You know, he can really speak things into your heart and into your mind in those moments. And that’s, that’s one of the biggest things that I tried to do is just seek after those quiet moments.

Paige C. Clark 10:19
Yeah, I heard something one time, and I was like, like, it just has resonated with me so much. And it says, like, if you work with your hands, rest with your mind, if you work with your mind, rest with your hands. Absolutely. And that has been like, super, I like life-giving, but like, also, like freeing from like guilt and shame. For me specifically, because I’m like, on my computer all day, I work a desk job. Like, when I get to my weekend, and when I like to have, you know, a Sabbath, or I’m resting and spending time kind of refilling my tank with God and all that good stuff. You know, I want to go outside, and I want to work in my garden like I want to draw, and I want to paint and things like that, where, you know, it’s not restful, and kind of the typical sense, but I work with my brain to rest with my hands. Absolutely. Do you feel like that’s true for you? And, like, how do you guys either find your weekly days of rest? Or if you guys observe Sabbath or anything like that?

Mark David Pullen 11:24
Oh, absolutely, I think I think we do a good job of that of trying to take off, take the hat off when we can, and, you know, letting life, I guess, kind of fall into place around us, you know, just kind of take the hat off, take that deep breath and say, Okay, let’s it’s time to downshift for the day time to downshift and just kind of move forward at a much slower easier pace. Absolutely.

Paige C. Clark 11:48
Yeah. And, and we talked, you talked a little bit, kind of like, before we hit record about kind of the stereotypes around blue-collar workers and, and faith and God and like, what that looks like, and all that good stuff, can you talk about that a little bit more?

Mark David Pullen 12:10
Sure. So, you know, I try to work with dignity; you know, I work in an environment where you can always be loud and robust about your faith. So I try to work, I try to be diligent, and I try to work, you know, with dignity; I would like to, even if I can’t talk about it, I would like people to be able to see Christ through my actions, you know, and I would like for them to look at me and know, there’s something different, and I would like them to be able to, you know, maybe if we have a second, you know, they can quietly approach me and asked, you know, and then we can talk but, you know, not everybody has the ability to talk openly, you know, in their workplace or be, you know, vibrant with their faith. And, you know, so in those environments, there are still ways to exhibit the love of Christ. And you can do that through your actions, and you know, what they will they’ll know what’s buyers? Love? Absolutely.

Paige C. Clark 13:04
Yeah. And what, in what ways has that kind of, like, played out in your life and, working with, like, what unique challenges? Do people like in your industry or, you know, another type of, I don’t want to say blue collar, but I’m using your own words, blue-collar workers, like what you need because I’m, I’m foreign to kind of that environment, what kind of what unique issues do you guys kind of face when it comes to practicing your faith in walking it out with God? And what does that look like? What is the solution look like? If anything at all,

Mark David Pullen 13:41
You know, it’s there’s days when you’re stuck in a truck with somebody, and you know, you can, you know, these guys are my family 40 hours a week, you know, that’s the way I look at it like I see them pretty much if you factor in time, I see them more than I see my family. So you know, it’s important to cultivate relationships with these with the people you work with, it’s important to, you know, nurture those relationships, because they are, though you see them frequently, you know, five days a week, let’s face it, if you don’t work overtime, five days a week, eight hours a day, you know, and they’re people too you know, they have things going on in their lives that, you know, they need help with, they need to talk to and why not be that person, you know if you have the opportunity, then you can be that ear, you know, I mean, you can shed light on to what they’re dealing with, maybe you can’t maybe you can just be listening here. But that’s the way I look at it is that they’re they are my family for 40 hours a week. So I try to cultivate those relationships. I try to nurture those relationships because, you know, I don’t mind being that guy. I don’t mind being the guy that people can come to, and people can talk to, you know, that’s, I think that that’s it’s an important role, and I think every workplace has that person, so I don’t mind if I am that person and I could be totally wrong. Person. I don’t mind being that guy.

Paige C. Clark 15:05
Yeah, yeah. And I think it, like, opens up the opportunity for maybe, like, not at the moment, you know, when you’re telling Jesus to people, but I think what it does is it like puts your foot in the door so that so when they have a situation that they might need support in whether it’s through prayer or, you know, discipleship or whatever it is that they know that like you’re a safe person to go to. And

Mark David Pullen 15:35
That Lily and I’ve had, I’ve had instances where they’ve, hey, you’re a church guy, you know, this is going on Ken, can you just I don’t want to pray with you. But can you say a prayer and say yes, absolutely? And then to be able to explain to them that you know what? Prayer and God are not necessarily a Get Out of Jail Free card? You right? Just because I’m willing to pray for you like, the response you get may not be the one you want. Yeah. And then to be able to explain to them, you know, a little more about, you know, how it works. And that, you know, sometimes the answer we get may not be the one we want, but it might be the one we need. And that’s not always hard. They’re not always an easy pill to swallow for somebody. But, you know, that’s I’ve absolutely had those instances where things like that have happened. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 16:24
yeah. And so, like, in what ways? Do you like, let people know your church guy, because I know some people who are like, Oh, I have, like, across to my cubicle, okay, you don’t have a cubicle. Or I’m assuming you don’t have a cubicle if you’re, you know, working around in your truck and on the different campuses and whatnot. So, you know, what does that look like for you?

Mark David Pullen 16:49
Well, I, you know, I do try to have that quiet faith, but when the opportunity does present itself, you know, the guys that I work with, they know that I go to church, you know, they know that I’m a Christian, they know that I believe in God. Because although we’re not allowed, necessarily, you know, we can’t be open about it. But you know, if you broach the subject, like, Hey, you started this, I did, you know, so I can kind of, I can write my foot in that door, too. So you know, the guys I work with, they know, because I’ve told them, you know, I’m like, yeah, we’ll absolutely, you know, if there’s anything we can do, we’ll be in prayer for you and their wives like, well, because I believe that prayer is a wonderful thing. Yeah. And that’s, that’s how they know is that although I do try to live that quiet faith at work, I’m also, if you open the door, I’m going to let you know.

Paige C. Clark 17:37
I love that too. Because, you know, sometimes it’s just like, you crack the door open a little bit, I like swung it open through both doors. And when you say, like, you’re kind of not allowed to, I think I get what you mean. But are you speaking from, like, in terms of like, a managerial position, and like, these people who you work with are kind of like, under you as, like, as your employees? Or is it more so like? Like, like a work culture? Or is it like an actual rule?

Mark David Pullen 18:13
No, it’s not a rule. Okay, more like work culture, I would say, you know, and as Christians, we’re not the most popular to begin with. Right, that makes any sense? Oh, yeah. You know, there’s a lot of things that are tolerated, I believe, today, and being a Christian isn’t one of them. Right. So. Really, it’s this kind of a work culture thing, I believe.

Paige C. Clark 18:42
Gotcha. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. Because I mean, and, and you don’t have to divulge this, but I know, especially like working in public school systems. You know, that also gets on really shaky territory. And I’m sure your wife has, you know, things to speak to in her interaction with, like, the kids on the campus and whatnot, of where it gets into, like, some real, sticky situations in terms of like navigating it from a Christian perspective.

Mark David Pullen 19:15
Absolutely. And she is actually she’s the same way she would tell you that, you know, she will, you know, she has the cross on her Bible. She has the teacher’s prayer on her Bible or on her desk, I’m sorry, on her desk. And she can’t, you know, if a child is like, Hey, what’s up with that? She can talk about it, but if they don’t, she can just say like, Hey, see this, you need to be looking into this. Like, it’s just one of those. Right? If they broach the subject, she can see you can go into a little bit of detail, but she can’t, you know. Yeah. And I mean, things, I guess,

Paige C. Clark 19:51
also, if the situation was reversed in terms of, like, you know, if a teacher was a Satanist or something, I wouldn’t want right them to be putting that on my kid, not saying that Christian is equivalent to see. But in terms of belief systems, if someone had a different belief system that I might not want my kids to expose to, you know, I wouldn’t want them to freely give that information to my kids; if I had kids, I’d assume. But on the other side of that, too, I think there’s also, like, the reason, why I asked about, like, the managerial stuff, is because, like, sometimes that can also influence your kind of interactions with not subordinates, but people who report up to you. I just got back from a conference in San Diego with the gal who, the week prior to the conference, was no longer my direct report; she got moved laterally to me. And so when we went to San Diego, I was like, No, we’re gonna have fun, like, I don’t have a page, like, I get to be like coworker page, and we get to have fun like that. And so that’s why I was asking that question. Because I’m like, yeah, there is like a little bit of complication, I guess, when you have like a team of people reporting up to you, and you are held to not your own standards, but like, also like company and like, organizational standards as well. Absolutely. Yeah. So um, when it comes to, like, practicing your faith, like, what is one of the biggest struggles that you have?

Mark David Pullen 21:37
My biggest struggle, to be quite honest, is putting God in a box. You know, I work eight hours a day, five days a week. The last thing I want to do by that, I find myself doing more often than not, putting God in that box and then checking him off after church on Sunday, like, okay, you know, crossing them off. Like, is one more thing off the list? Okay, check the box. We did it. You know, and that’s why we believe I believe that would be my biggest struggle. Yeah, I’m definitely working on it.

Paige C. Clark 22:10
Yeah. And are you talking more in terms of just, like, your interaction with him because, like, I get like church on Sunday and then like, checkoff, but also like, when people talk about like putting God in a box, it’s like, limiting beliefs about God and like, what he is able and capable of doing in your life?

Mark David Pullen 22:28
Yeah, try not to think of it like that because I can look at what he’s done for me, and I can see how he’s guided my footsteps to where I am. Yeah. I would have to say, mainly, for the church thing on Saturday, you know, making it, you know, and does it, you know, are there days where my prayers at night aren’t as strong as they could be? Are they a little bit faster? Absolutely. But, you know, as I said, that’s something that I’m trying to work on. Is that not putting him in that box? You know, because, as I said, I have seen where I’ve been, where, what I’ve come from, like, where he’s guided my footsteps? And he deserves better than that.

Paige C. Clark 23:10
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I also think too, like it, it limits gods, you know, doesn’t limit God, but it limits us to be able to be used by God in other areas of our life. Absolutely. And I think too, like we, when we just kind of use it as like a checklist item, it becomes obligatory rather than a relationship.

Mark David Pullen 23:43
Absolutely. And that’s, and you know, it’s days like that when the 50-minute ride to church seems to take 100 minutes, and then the 45-minute sermon takes 90 minutes. And it’s, and it’s usually before the day is over that I’m, you know, kicking myself going like, okay, you know why that was right. And it was because, you know, my up and down wasn’t right, you know, and I find that when you’re up and down is right, though, you know, your vertical is right, your horizontal, you know, everything else falls into place.

Paige C. Clark 24:14
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, like one of the things I like, I really want to keep true on this podcast is, is the fact and it’s a hard question to ask because I’m like putting people on blast like hey, like, where do you suck in life? Because we all have those areas. I wouldn’t put it. I’m not going to tell you that you suck, Mark. But we all have those. We are all. We all fall short. And we all have weaknesses. And so I always just like to roll that one in there because I feel like it is so important to talk about because, you know, when I was recording with another couple this week, I asked him, you know, like, what’s your what’s, Is your daily life look like? And with your walk with God, he’s like, do you want the ideal answer? Or do you want the real answer? I’m like, No, I want the real answer. I have an ideal answer my ideal. Yeah, I totally wake up every single morning; I, you know, read Scripture, I have my quiet time for an hour and a half, and then I go to the gym, right? Like, that does not happen before I sign into work every day. The real reason is that I listen to Christian music in my car, and I pray to God before bed on a daily basis; the majority of the time, that’s what it looks like. And so I feel like when we’re able to kind of humanize, you know, the Jesus experience, I

Mark David Pullen 25:41
Guess, absolutely.

Paige C. Clark 25:44
It feels more approachable to Yes, absolutely. And so, you know, when you’re, when you’re going on that drive, and you know, you’re, you’re going to church, and sometimes, like, I mean, if you want to be like, not legalistic about it, but it like in my mind, if I was like, if I was you, I’d be like, okay, 15 minutes or 15 minutes back, plus, like, a 45-minute sermon plus, like, you know, 20-minute worship, okay, that’s like, three, four hours right there.

Mark David Pullen 26:15
With God, right, and then see, but then there’s the, there’s the planning side, too. So you’re doing that math, as opposed to with a six-year-old and a four-year-old, like, okay, they’re gonna buckled in for 50 minutes, we’re gonna get out, they have to sit quietly in church for 45, then when we leave the happy buckled back in for 15 minutes, so we get them home, they’re just going to be complete and total animals by the neck, because of all that pent up energy. So

Paige C. Clark 26:40
that’s where you have to find, like, I don’t know, if they have a mount there, but like, like a trampoline park that’s like, nearby the church. And then, after church, you just let them go. And then, on the way home, they’re quiet little angels in the backseat?

Mark David Pullen 26:56
I will have to look for something like that.

Paige C. Clark 27:00
That’s what I would do.

Mark David Pullen 27:01
That’s true, buddy.

Paige C. Clark 27:04
Um, is there something that you do or that you see other people do in your life? Or even, like, on TV, podcast, books, whatever, that helps people manage their work and faith like, and what would that be?

Mark David Pullen 27:25
That’s a good one. Um, you know, I think, to be totally honest, I think my mom does a pretty good job. You know, telling you the truth. And, well, yes, it tells me the truth. And, you know, she works for the district where I work; she’s not necessarily as reserved as I am, you know, whereas I wait for that door to creak open a good bit before I took my foot in my mom, like, you just got to turn the handle, and my mom’s kicking down the door, you know, she’s got the knob on the other side, and she’s ripping the door open. You know, I’m not as seasoned as she is. But that’s one of those things that that boldness for Christ that I’m definitely I, I would encourage people to seek after you know what, yeah, that’s one thing that you can be 100% sure it is Christ. Like, be a little bold in that; let’s have a little boldness in our faith? Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 28:30
And what do you think are some of the I mean, there’s no right answer, and I don’t know the answer, either. But what are you? What do you think? Some of the reasons why Christians are maybe more reserved in that boldness.

Mark David Pullen 28:43
You know, what if, as I said earlier, we’re not the world’s most favorite people right now? Right, you know, then we’re really cool people. I don’t understand. But I don’t necessarily know whether it’s fear of ridicule or stepping on toes. But you know, I think that’s, I think we need to get better about that. I think we need to be bold and less worried about what the opinions are because they don’t care about ours. Not saying that that’s the right thing. You know, you don’t care about us; we don’t care about you. But you know, if they have the privilege to be bold about their opinions, we need to be bold about ours as well. Yeah, I think I think that can be a two-way street.

Paige C. Clark 29:30
Yeah, my pastor at my church, he calls it a throat punch. And it’s saying the right thing at the right time in the right way. Absolutely. Where like, where the that’s where the boldness comes out of like, I’m going to tell you, you know, a truth, and it’s like, gonna come out. It’s like, I’m not gonna be mean about it. I’m not gonna say it in the worst way possible, but I’m still gonna tell the truth, and I’m gonna say it to you when you need it. I hear it in the way you need to hear it.

Mark David Pullen 30:03
Right. And I, you know, I believe that there’s also to go along with that is, you know, speaking the truth in love. You know, if it offends you with your bicycle to truth and love and it still offends you, that’s kind of a huge problem because I come at you, let come at you with my hands up right away saying like, hey, look, your brother or sister like, this is what I see. This is how I can help. And if you still get offended, I think that’s your problem at that point.

Paige C. Clark 30:30
Yeah. Yeah. Because there’s something stirring that there’s something when there’s a fence taken. There’s something stirring internally that is two opposing forces. You know, it’s not just one opposing force; there’s something pushing back against it. So yeah, that’s completely true and completely right. And, and I think, too, when it comes to, you know, speaking, the truth and love, I think that a lot of the times, you know, you see it a lot now, where people like you just need to love, you just need to love. I’m like, Okay, if you’re walking across a bridge, and you’re about to fall off, I’m going to tell you that you’re about to fall off, no matter how much you like walking across that bridge. Right? And that’s what love is to me, you know, and I think that a lot of the times we think is like, No, you want to walk across the bridge. Go ahead; I’m gonna let you do what you want to do. Right? So walk across the bridge when rarely, the love part was stopping them. And I always like to say like, if you always have, there’s, I don’t know if it’s a saying or something. But it’s like, if you have the best secret of the world in the world, like, you know, the best thing in the world. Don’t you want to tell the entire world about it? You don’t want to keep it to yourself?

Mark David Pullen 31:50
Absolutely. 100%?

Paige C. Clark 31:53
Yeah, that’s awesome. And yeah, I think too, like, other people can be bold; we can be bold, as well. And I think that I think there’s a lot of fear, especially in, like, I don’t even know if you want to call it Kancil culture or like, even the fact that like, everyone’s phones are like, around nowadays, like, yes. The fact that we feel like we can always be put on blast and that like, you know, getting fired from your job is like, really, it’s very close. Like, it’s, I feel like,

Mark David Pullen 32:26
It’s absolutely closer to us.

Paige C. Clark 32:28
now than it has ever been, especially as Christians, because one thing was taken out of context. That’s all if you’re done.

Mark David Pullen 32:36
And you know, and you then you think, like, Okay, well, you know, all right, it’s just me, but it’s not just you, you know, what happens to your family, you know, things like that like you run that risk these days. Because nothing you say is secret anymore. Not that you can’t say anything in private anymore. Everything. Yeah, we’ll dig deep enough or dig hard enough is public knowledge. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 32:58
yeah. And I’d probably pull the clip and put it somewhere in this episode if I can find it. But there’s a there’s like a sheriff’s office out here. And he likes the speed traps. And like, that’s like what he does, and they film it, and they make like a, like a kind of, you know, reality TV show out of it just on Facebook every week for the Pinellas County Sheriffs. And there was this guy, and he like, you know, approached a car, and the kid in the car was just like giving him lip and like Sass and back and everything. And then the guy said, you know, if you don’t give me your ID, then I’m gonna have to pull you out this car because, you know, failure to identify as an arrestable offense. And so the kid whips out his cell phone and starts recording it. And then he goes, can you say that for me one more time? And he says, yep. And I’m like, just gave the spiel. Again, I need your identification. And he goes, okay, yeah, here it is. And, like, pulls it out. And he hands it to him. And afterward, the sheriff was like, Did you see that? Like, the interaction up to the point where he started recording was so, like, nasty on the kid’s side. And then, once he started recording, he became the perfect person all over again.

Mark David Pullen 34:17
Well, it’s so funny because before I went to work for the school, I worked for a local municipality, and I was building maintenance for the Sheriff’s Department. So I got to know a lot of the guys, and I was there when they were being fitted for their body cams. And of the gentlemen who I cultivated a good relationship with, a good friend of mine, Now I would say, we have since retired, but I remember he was telling me that he rolled up on a vehicle one night and he got to the window to ask for the license and registration and they had the camera out already. They had their phone out. And he waved and pointed at him and said Now you wave to mine. And he was like; it was shocking how quickly the phone went down at that point. rapport,

Paige C. Clark 35:00
yeah, but anyways, I’ll have to find that clip because it is really funny, but all that to say, you know, we’re in this world where we’re scared to step out and boldness in so much the fact, as you mentioned, at once one we could be hated, you know people could not like us I always joke I come from a PR and communications background, I always joke that Christians need a really good PR campaign because you’re 100% right, most people don’t like us, for whatever reason. And on the other side, we’re scared that kind of that vitriol toll towards us is going to turn against us and kind of threaten us in a way that is either taking things out of context or, you know, things set at the right time or at the wrong time in the wrong way. Or even so much. So, where we are, we are all sinners, and we will continue to sin. For example, if you have a moment of anger, and that is what is decided to be, you know, pulled out of the situation versus something else. You know, I feel like those are all risks that we run not only in our everyday life but especially in our workplaces.

Mark David Pullen 36:27
Absolutely. 100%.

Paige C. Clark 36:30
So, what, what is the like spiritual discipline that is most difficult to kind of apply to your life? You talked a little bit about, like, church; I feel like that’s like a logistics problem. But like, like something, something that uniquely applies to you in working, you know, eight hour day, 40 days, we are sorry, 40 hour day, oh my gosh, 40 hour week, working five times, oh, my gosh, working a 40 hour week, let’s just leave you you go, I have to say I’m in working that, like what is a discipline that you think like many other people in your situation would also kind of face.

Mark David Pullen 37:23
I would definitely have to say starting the day with devotions. You know, my feet hit the ground. I would not quit running in the morning. But I’d like to think I have decent luck with my stuff. You know, I haven’t slept in six years, I’m looking to add. I mean, and that’s it. And so, my day starts, and then immediately after that, it’s the pitter-patter of little feet. And it’s okay. You know, mom’s up, and she’s packing lunches. I’m up, you know, we’re getting kids ready, we’re getting showered, we’re getting cleaned, like, and we’ve got, you know, 45 minutes before we have to be out the door to get the youngest to freaking. So, you know, it’s that. It’s definitely the devotions because it doesn’t really matter. What time I get up, what time we get up, because it seems that once we’re up, it’s not much longer after that, that the day has started. Because the kids hear us up there up, you know, and then the day has just started 15 minutes earlier, you know? Yeah, so I definitely would definitely be starting my day with devotions down.

Paige C. Clark 38:31
Yeah. And I think too, like, I know, there’s like, it doesn’t matter when you get that time with God. But I think there’s something especially unique about having it in the morning. Not only does it like, in terms of not only does it stretch that discipline in you in terms of, you know, getting in Scripture, communing with God. But also, it helps you set your brain and your heart on the right trajectory for the day,

Mark David Pullen 39:02
It starts your day, starts your day, and Absolutely, I agree with that. 100%. You know, there’s, I’ve done them in the morning, and I’ve done them at night, and there’s just, there’s a difference between going to bed on it versus waking up with it and waking up with it. It’s exactly that you’re getting your head and your heart rate together first thing in the morning. And you know, you might still have a crazy day, but you started it right. Yeah. You started it with your head and your heart going in the right direction. And, you know, that’s that, you know, I absolutely agree 100%

Paige C. Clark 39:40
I feel that way about going to the gym, especially since I know some people love to work out in the evenings. I do not because, guess what? If it gets to evening and I haven’t worked out, I’m not gonna work out. Exactly, exactly. And so that also is like another scapegoat for me of like if I didn’t spend my time with God in the morning first thing, and then it’s also like there’s like you know, you can almost hyper spiritualize it of like, oh, like you’re putting God first there’s nothing else that matters nothing else but comes before him. Yes, that is still all true. But there’s also the fact of, like, Hey, if you don’t do it, you’re probably not going to if your personality is anything like mine. Absolutely.

Mark David Pullen 40:19
I agree. I do. I totally understand that.

Paige C. Clark 40:23
Because, like, a little kiddo might need to, like, bonk his head and needs to go get stitches, God forbid. But, like, you don’t know what’s going to happen the rest of the day. So just like, started off with some Jesus?

Mark David Pullen 40:37
Yes, yes.

Paige C. Clark 40:39
Awesome, Mark. Well, this has been such an amazing conversation; I always like to finish off our episodes with one thing listeners who are listening because that’s what listeners do. One thing that they can do to implement a faith-building discipline, or practice into their life, this week, today, tomorrow, anything that they might be able to do to help them kind of grow their faith, move closer to God, and make that boldness a little bit easier.

Mark David Pullen 41:10
Door. And as you know, I think I said already, just seek those quiet moments. There are plenty of times throughout the day, I, you know, I’m fairly certain everybody has those moments, just where they can go on autopilot, and then just everything else melts at random, and then you can have that quiet one on one time with God. You know, and for me, in particular, I can tell you that those moments occur more often than not at work. You know, there’s plenty of times where, you know, if my day requires me to be on the mower, you know, I started on the mower at 730 in the morning, my brains on autopilot all day, I know where I’m going, I know what I’m doing. So my mind is free to wander. So why not wander in that direction? You know, wander, wander, and hold hands with God. That’s what I would say seek those quiet moments.

Paige C. Clark 41:55
I love that. I love that. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find you and learn more about you or your book, all that exciting stuff?

Mark David Pullen 42:05
You can find, obviously, through my website; the waist is king.com has a little reach-out section, so you can contact me via email. You can find me on social media, my Instagram and my Pinterest or Mark David Pullin, and Facebook; I am at the real Oasis King.

Paige C. Clark 42:22
Awesome. I’m so excited. And all of those links will be down in the show notes. Thank you so much, Mark, and we’ll catch you guys on the next episode.

Mark David Pullen 42:30
Thanks so much.

Paige C. Clark 42:32
Thanks for joining us. If you liked what you were listening to, make sure you subscribe and hit those five stars, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.

Paige C. Clark 00:35
Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of nine to five faith. I am so excited to be introducing one of my friends Justin Tilghman. Justin, how the heck are ya?

Justin Tilghman 00:46
I’m doing pretty darn good. Thank you for asking.

Paige C. Clark 00:48
You’re welcome. So tell our audience a little bit about yourself. What do you do? What’s up? What keeps you busy in the nine to five space and, and beyond?

Justin Tilghman 01:01
Yeah, so I’m busy. I’m real busy. So my daytime job is I work in higher education. So I’m a dean at a college and oversee a pretty large program. It’s a student from all over the country. So we stay busy, one of the largest programs in our state, and we’re the largest in the country for what we do. So we stay real busy. Got two young boys, beautiful wife, they keep me busy, a three year old and a four month old. So I got one that’s run all over the house. And one, it’s a potted plant. So that’s, that’s given me plenty to do. I’m fully in the superhero world right now. And also, I’m very involved with our church, I’m an elder at our church Grace fellowship. And so stay busy with that we lead a small group Bible study, my wife and I, and, and then also do life and leadership coaching. So got lots of pots and lots of different fires.

Paige C. Clark 01:55
I love that. I love that. And I also like asking that question, because I know everyone doesn’t do just one thing, or at least the people I’m talking to y’all are, you know, people have many talents and many different skills. And so talk to us a little bit about, like, what a day in the life of Justin looks like and how you learn to kind of balance just all all of the things, especially having kids and what that looks like and leading a small group and being in charge and doing all the business things and all the work things.

Justin Tilghman 02:31
Yeah. So typical day, I like to start at five o’clock, that’s not happened here. Lately, my life, my wife has been laughing at me waking me up, she’s like, you know, it’s not five, I was like, I know, I know. But because I like to do the business stuff in the morning for me my coaching business as far as the essentials in the morning, because that way doesn’t need in the family time when I get off work. Occasionally it has to, it’s just the way things are. But then it’s my wife and I split the duties of getting the kids off where they need to go. My wife’s an elementary school teacher, so we kind of have to one kid goes one way to preschool and one one goes to our neighbors down the road who helped us watch him. So managing that and then ended up the office, managing the higher ed stuff. And I usually take my lunch breaks, and maybe I’ll coach a client on my lunch break. Try not let that I obviously don’t want that interfere with a full time job and then do do some coaching at night. I try to keep that really limited. Just because that’s I try to like set balance keep up for the kiddos and a wife and and then at night it’s either small group Bible study, occasionally there’s an elders meeting at church. I work with a Christian school here, I’m on their board, so occasionally have a board meeting. But really try to keep those nights for playing superheroes playing Hulk and Captain America and, and, and just loving all my family cuz I don’t want them to get the leftovers. And so prioritize that nighttime is for them. So,

Paige C. Clark 04:05
yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. And, and how has that routine kind of transitioned over the years if it has at all of like, you know, kind of refining the different kind of rhythm and routine that you have?

Justin Tilghman 04:21
Yeah, that’s great. So it has changed and it’s, I think it’s in flux. It’s different now with two kids and it was with one kid than it was with no kids. And so like, with no kids, my wife and I, you know, we could still, I could do a lot more in the evenings. Because we had space to you know, we could just be in the living room together and working on things and and I was also doing doctoral work at that time. So that gave lots of space to do all that stuff. One kid came along, obviously change that, as he got older, more self sufficient. Could be a little bit more at night, that we my wife and I can still connect because he was gone to bed, and now with two kids, that’s totally different. Which is why I was like, Well, I gotta put some more time on the front end of the day. Because have been two kids at night having to get one in the bath and feed one a bottle. And it’s just gotten to a point where, you know, if we’re gonna get quality time as a family, it has to be very little done outside of family in the evenings. Yeah. And so it’s just been the biggest thing is communicating Shinnok communicating of hey, what do you need? This? These are the things I need to do, how can we make that work? How can we work together? For that we’re both getting what we need, the kids are getting what they need. And everybody as much as we can, is getting what they need to flourish, and the boys are getting what they need from mom and dad. So it’s a it’s a dancer. Yeah, cause and that’s why I like I like balance that I do balance because people think balance is like this, but it’s really Alright, step in here.

Paige C. Clark 05:51
Yeah, a little bit of each way. And I mean, I am a huge proponent of like waking up early. I’m like, ultra productive when I wake up early. But my issue is, is I’ll wake up early, get what I need to get done. And then I’ll fall back asleep until I have to start work. Am I back at? Like, all the time, I’ll get up at four. And then I’ll like be like, yeah, like going to the gym in the morning, go off. And then I get home. And I’m like, zombie and I’m, like completely unhelpful until like nine o’clock rolls around.

Justin Tilghman 06:26
Yeah, well, I’ll get up at five. And I’ll crank out, you know, podcast episode for the coaching business or something like that. And then the next thing I know, my little boys wrap it on my office door, Dad, are you awake? Fell asleep.

Paige C. Clark 06:38
I mean, that’s real life, though. So working in higher education? What does kind of like the integration of your faith look like? And kind of how you carry yourself how you do your job? And then also like, what struggles do you encounter because I also worked in higher education, but I also worked at a Christian college. So that is a little bit different than you know, and also your wife is in education as well. So I’m sure you know, we see a lot of the conversation where just faith has been removed from the workplace, but also from education. And those spheres, we’ve seen kind of a slow transition, and then now it feels like warp speed. So tell us a little bit more about that.

Justin Tilghman 07:24
Yeah, so I have always been one that my faith is part of who I am, I try really hard not to have a sacred secular sacred divide in my life. And I’ve always been upfront with the people I work with the students I teach. And I mean, I’ve had staff members, faculty members come in my office, because it straight up say, I know, you’re somebody who prays I’m going through this, would you would you pray with me, and I’m always going to say, if you ask for it, absolutely. You do have to be careful from working for a state college and my wife working state education, you do have to be a little careful of initiating that. But I have found that people are more receptive to that than the news would make you think. Right. And, and especially when they work with you, and they know the kind of person that you’re and if you leave with if you if you work with integrity, so if you are, if you say I’m a believer, and you can make that known, and it’s how you also work that way, and they can see that in the way that you operate. They know that it’s coming from a place of genuine care, it’s not coming from a place of I’m trying to put something in your face. Because I’ve had, I’ve had colleagues that we very much disagree on a lot of things, but they know where I’m coming from. And so when I do share something with them, they know it’s coming out of a place of I this is who Justin genuinely is and he genuinely cares. And that’s why and the door is open for them in the other way. Like it’s not just I’m Justin, I’m a Christian here, take my faith and do something. But it’s also Hey, I wanna have a genuine conversation with if you disagree, it makes me stronger, knowing why you disagree. Right and and creating that space for those conversations. My wife and I will both have both talked about it. And again, the national narrative is what it is. But I have found boots on the ground, it’s different. There’s still those landmines, you have to dance around. I mean, they’re there. But it’s not quite like. And I’m not saying that’s not that’s an overgeneralization for a lot of people, but for where I am I and where she is, in terms of the jobs that we have. It’s not that way. Yeah, we do have to be careful. We do have to do a little bit of a dance with some things. And there’s some things that can’t initiate. But students certainly can. But I do what I can to make it known to students and colleagues if you want to negotiate those things outside of nice having a big fat banner. Right, you know, you can well pray. Yeah, yeah.

Paige C. Clark 09:55
Yeah, for sure. And I think too, like, especially over the past few years. Here’s my husband, he’s been like, he was like a news junkie, meaning like, he was always consuming the news. And it just got to the point we actually like, gave it up one year for Lent. And then we realized how much happier we are. And I’m like, you know, if you just like, keep your head down in your community, and like, only involve yourself in stuff you’re involved in, involve yourself in your community and the people around you, your neighbors and your family, you’ll realize the world is a much nicer place than then yeah, you’re being told it is.

Justin Tilghman 10:35
I completely agree. And my wife and I have talked about that, in that I feel like with with social media and the 24 hour news cycle, it’s almost like we’re being forced to be omniscient when God never created us to be omniscient. And, and we’re not. It’s a one hand, we think it’s great to be able to know everything going on when it’s happening. But look at the anxiety that’s caused in people and you’re 100%, right, that I have learned in those moments where I focused on where I am, where God placed me in the community, that people he’s placed me with things calm down a lot better, a lot more, because those people know you. Right? And so they know where you’re coming from. For the most part, I mean, again, it doesn’t fit every problem. But you’d like you said the world’s when you take that more circular view of where you are, the world looks different than when if you just stay on the news and social media.

Paige C. Clark 11:26
Yeah, yeah, I actually had this conversation with my mother in law just last night. Because she’s getting older, she’s having a harder time kind of like, navigating just like her brain, and you know, all those things that come with aging. And she’s like, I think I just need to give up the news. I was like, you definitely should like, turn off the news. Because she’s retired and home all the time. She watches the news all the time. And she’s like, Yeah, how do you find out what’s happening in the world? And I go, if it’s affecting the people around me, I’m going to find out about it. If it’s not affecting the people around me or myself, or like, my family, or my neighbors in my community, then it’s it’s not really my concern. It’s not, you know, not my, you know, battle to fight in that regard. So yeah, I totally, totally agree with that. Yeah.

Justin Tilghman 12:15
And I think, you know, there are people that God has called her and equipped to, to pay attention to that. And they’ve been called and equipped and gifted to do that, not everybody has. And so I think the people that have that gifting and have that calling, can handle it. Not all of us can. And so we shouldn’t be trying to step into something we’ve not necessarily been called or gifted to do.

Paige C. Clark 12:34
Yeah. And you mentioned a few times of just having kind of this integrity, and then also having the same of like being known. And I think too, like, as Christians, generally speaking, like, we’re really afraid to be known. Because it shows our weaknesses, it shows our flaws, it shows our mistake. But also, when we’re known, and we are able to act out of integrity, I feel like that’s where Grace shows up. And I think that, that’s really cool to be hearing that, you know, you get to do your job with integrity, but also just like, being who you are. And just like stepping into that is the gateway for people to come to you when they need help and support or prayer or whatever it is in that regard. Oh, absolutely.

Justin Tilghman 13:29
And my wife, she preaches vulnerability and transparency and authenticity all the time. And, and she’s so right. And I found that true here in my life, that Christians already have this stigma of having everything together. And so people outside feel like, well, I can’t step into that church, or I can’t do this, or I, you know, until I’ve got my junk together. And I think when we are when we are open about the things that we’re wrestling with, and the struggles that we have, and they see, I mean, even my my colleagues, they see Justin, unfortunately, overreact sometimes, and Justin can get angry, right? But Justin is quick to us to note that and to go back and ask forgiveness. So Justin’s a real person who, who gets mad, and gets frustrated and can say things he regrets a lot. But he’s also quick to ask forgiveness from people and quit to admit that and own up to it. And, and so it builds, it builds goodwill with people and they see, you know, he’s a believer, but he’s a real person. And so then, you know, I’m not perfect so they can see, I’m not perfect, so, Justin’s not perfect. So, but he’s following Jesus, so there must be something to this Jesus thing. We don’t have to be perfect.

Paige C. Clark 14:43
Right? Yeah. 100% And I think to just like, I always think of it in the back of my mind because I’m, I’m a marketing person. And so, in the back of my mind, I’m just like, gosh, Christians need a PR campaign. Like Christians need a little bit of PR help to like I actually get like the majority of people like what we actually do and what how we actually act because again, you know, if you look big and you look at kind of the more fringe the outside of people who say that they believe in Jesus where that they follow Christ, you’re gonna be like, oh, I want nothing to do with them. But if you just like, look within your community, you’re gonna be like, Oh, my neighbor goes to church, and she’s a good person to be working with, or I can go to them if I need anything, or, or what have you.

Justin Tilghman 15:35
Oh, yeah, because you’ve got, unfortunately, the people that get the most attention, are either the people who are holding up this holier than thou attitude, or the people who said they follow Jesus, but their life looks nothing, no different whatsoever from the rest of the world. And so when they look there, they’re like, you’re not any different from Easter. Why do I need what you have? Right? Are they look at the holier than thou and go? Well? Well, I don’t want to be like you. Yeah. You know, I don’t see that grace, you preach. And I think for those of us that try to live in the middle, or are living in the middle, we don’t get as much airtime.

Paige C. Clark 16:11
Yes, that and that. Hence why I say PR campaign. Anyone? I feel like this is a complete side note, but I feel like things like the chosen. I know like some people are like, super like touchy about and whatever. I’m not going into that. But I feel like there’s things like that that are helping progress kind of this this attitude of approachability in terms of not conforming to culture, but meeting culture and showing up in the way in the places that culture is that

Justin Tilghman 16:43
what I mean, Jesus was human or human he was it was about humanity. And and I think so many times we try to we focus on his divinity, which is great. But we forget he was a human being. And, and and you don’t people, especially children aren’t drawn to humans who are stiff and stuck up and hoity toity. Right. So we don’t know exactly what he was like. But we would get some clues. Because if the kids were running into him, they don’t run. I know my two kids, they don’t run the people who are scary, and hard and mean, say?

Paige C. Clark 17:15
Yeah, and I think that’s been like a really cool thing to see. Kind of just the the intersection of those two things kind of happening. Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about like your church involvement and what that looks like, within your community. And you said you like you’re on the elder board and, you know, small group or home group or Bible, so whatever you want to call it, you know, you’re you’re doing that. So how do you kind of navigate that in terms of, like, I’ll give my personal experience. I’m just exhausted from the week. Like, I’ll just get to like, home group time. And I’m like, Okay, I’m, like, so tired. Like I could, like, let alone hosting it. Honestly, that’s like, one of the reasons why I’m not like a Bible study host at my church is because I’m like, I do not trust my energy levels. So talk a little bit about that.

Justin Tilghman 18:06
Yeah, I mean, it’s your right. And we to thankfully, the elder meetings are once a month, and and our senior pastor who’s one of the elders on the board, is excellent at running a good meeting. And so I never, I never feel like this was a waste of time or anything accomplished, like it is, he is a he’s a gifted administrator. And so that’s helpful. And with the small group stuff, my wife and I talk about it. So one of our core values at our churches is House tours, or small group Bible studies, and, and we leave for all of our new members, she and I lead that portion of the new members class, okay, and we tell them most weeks, if I’m being honest, we get to Wednesday night, and we don’t want to go. It’s like, we can think of 1000 other things to do. But it’s a discipline and, and we have found what’s helpful is, we we have never left a Wednesday night, house church and gone, that was a waste of time, we shouldn’t have gone, it is really a refreshing thing. And, and so I think in those moments where we feel overwhelmed, it’s one of those things where we know Hey, this is a commitment. This is a discipline and we know it’s for our good. And so it feels like it’s gonna be a drain. But God has put this in our life and he’s put our church community our life to be the refreshment and, and, and really kind of like family, family gets the first should get the first fruits of what you got. In my mind, that’s the priority list of my family, my church family, because I’m knitted closer to them than than anybody and then the rest of everything else. And so trying to keep keep that priority list of that balance is helpful. It’s not perfect. That’s always a work in progress. And there’s like I said, there’s So Wednesday nights around, like, I just don’t know if I got the bandwidth for it, but I go, and I ever regretted it. Yeah. So I think that’s, that’s the thing is, is, for me at least, is knowing it’s important. And it’s, I mean, I’m not, I’m not patting myself on the back, but it’s a maturity thing. It’s making decisions that you know, are for your good even when you don’t want to do them necessarily.

Paige C. Clark 20:21
Right. Yeah, for sure. And I think to like, I mean, I just think of like, two examples came into my mind of like, okay, like going to the gym, right? But then I’m like, Okay, some days, I’m like, regretting going to the gym, like, so that’s probably not the best. The best example but like, on the other side, like, just going to like more. So like, weekend church, for me is is where I require that discipline. And I do just tell myself the same thing of like, you never go and have a bad time. Not that I’m like, looking for like a good time. But like I you know, you always walk away and you’re like, oh, wow, like that was like actually good and actually helpful. And like, I think to like, even if you don’t get anything out of it, I know. That’s like a weird way to say like going to church. But even if, like you still walk away in like a rotten mood, like it’s still exercising that muscle of discipline, like you were saying. And I see Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like, it goes hand in hand with like, the authenticity piece because I’m like, when, when my small group was meeting, I’m like, if I feel like we’re in pajamas, like I’m gonna wear pajamas, because me wearing pajamas. And being with this group of people is better than me being in pajamas at home by myself, like that, because that is what the Lord has called me to do.

Justin Tilghman 21:46
Hey, yeah, I’d agree at it. I like the idea of the muscle, like, it’s one guy in our small group. One was that he made a great point, he said, um, you know, sometimes, you just have to let the emotions take a backseat, and do what you know, is needed. And what you’re doing, like you just said, you’re working at muscles. So you’re storing up, storing up treasure, if you want to call it but you’re storing up. It’s paying to your account. And so it’s some days you feel it. Some days you don’t but you know, you need to do it. And so, like you said, it’s in that way, there’s like a gym like no pain, no gain.

Paige C. Clark 22:28
Right? Yeah. And I think too, there’s, there’s this element. I went, I can’t remember what it was. There were I went to church, and there was a sermon or something. And I was like, listening to it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, there was like this, like, big, like worship thing. It wasn’t associated with the church or anything. But it was like really just to, to draw in kind of new believers. And like, you know, that was the message, not that it was antithetical, or heretical in any ways. But I was sitting there, and I was like, you know, like, not like really getting anything out of this. Like, it’s not like, but then I was sitting there. And I was, like, debriefing this with my husband afterwards. And I was like, You know what? That message wasn’t for me tonight, like, not that it wasn’t like my taste or anything. It just like, what that pastor was speaking on stage. Those words weren’t meant to be spoken to me. They were meant to be spoken to someone else in the in the crowd. Yeah. So you know, just having that mindset of like, they’re preaching Jesus. And I felt and I’m like, Yes, like, Yes, I agree. I agree. But I already got Jesus like we could. And, and yeah, I’m like, this is this is, these words are meant for someone here. And it’s not me, but I’m still here participating as the body of Christ. And that is what we’re called to do.

Justin Tilghman 23:54
Yeah, that’s a great way of putting it.

Paige C. Clark 23:56
Yeah. And sometimes it’s hard. And I think that’s where the authenticity comes in. You have to show up in your pajamas show up in your pajamas.

Justin Tilghman 24:05
You’re right. It’s it’s a your, your real people and Jesus calls real people and you’re not doing anybody any favors putting, putting on a facade. So

Paige C. Clark 24:13
yeah, yeah. And I think too, like, being that person, to your community, allows other people in your community to be that person to you. That’s like one thing. I’m really big at, like my house and stuff. Or I’m like, if I if I were to walk into your house, I want to be comfortable. I want to be able to take off my shoes and maybe curl up on the couch and like, like, that’s just me. I don’t want to be I remember, I remember growing up in there. It’d be like these houses that were like museums, and they were so unapproachable and like you didn’t want to touch anything because like it was white couch and you didn’t want to get fingerprints. And I’m like, I don’t want that to be my house. I was in. So like, when people come over to my house, I’m like, help yourself to whatever you want cabinets, there’s the water, there’s the food, there’s the drinks, go get whatever you need, help yourself, don’t even ask. Just go and get it. Because if I’m invited into a home, that’s kind of how I would want to be treated, and having that vulnerability and ability of like, if I have to wear pajamas one day to small group, because that’s just where you’re giving permission to other people to be their authentic selves, is what I’m trying to say no, yeah,

Justin Tilghman 25:33
that’s right. No, you’re right. And I think, I mean, authenticity breeds authenticity. And so when one person does it, it does give other people the space to breathe and go, Okay, I can be me. And that’s where that’s where real connection and real change happens when people start doing that?

Paige C. Clark 25:50
Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. Because I think too, like, if we have just this facade kind of going into everything, then yeah, it’s authenticity breeze on 100%. Because if people people have like a really good BS radar, and if you’re not being real with them, like they can tell that you’re just like putting on face. And I think that, you know, when we’re able to see past the masks were able to really come together and like, actually grow and actually, you know, foster growth. And there’s another word that I’m trying to think of that just like kind of escape from my brain. But yeah,

Justin Tilghman 26:34
well, that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier of the look, your local community looking different than what the news tells you. Because you’re looking at the mask that everybody’s supposed to be wearing. We’re regardless of political side drum, this is the mask you’re supposed to wear. When you get into community with people, regardless of where they are on a political spectrum as a social stretch, or whatever, yeah, start talking to people, you realize we’re a lot more human than then they’re trying to make us think we are. And so we can actually have a conversation. And we can, we can be from totally opposite sides of whatever the issue is, and realize we can still talk to each other.

Paige C. Clark 27:15
Right? Right. And I think too, it’s like, this is off topic a little bit, but like looking at intentions, like that’s one thing that I really try to look at, when, when I’m talking to someone and even in my relationship with my husband, I’m, I think, like, if he does something to upset me, I say, okay, is he purposefully doing that to upset me? Probably not. Like, probably not. So can I be mad at him for upsetting me? Know, Bo, then there’s like, the communication and their growth, opportunity and everything like that. And I think too, like when we look at just whatever issues you want to pull, I’m like, okay, like, we all kind of want to get to the same end result. But how we get there is very different. We’re arguing about the path there. We’re not arguing about the journey. Because if we’re arguing about or sorry, yeah, not, we’re not arguing about the destination. Because ultimately, we all want to love on each other. We all want to be supportive. from a Christian perspective, we all want people to be following Christ and, you know, be able to spend eternity with Him. But the path there is, is where the disagreements kind of come in. And I think that’s what everyone just attacks the path.

Justin Tilghman 28:35
Yeah, that’s a good way of putting I hadn’t thought about it that way.

Paige C. Clark 28:37
Yeah. And and when you look at things through that lens, it just like softens your heart a little bit, in my opinion.

Justin Tilghman 28:46
Or reminds me of the verse that you were, Paul says, You’re our battle is not against flesh and blood. And so the person sitting in front of you is not your enemy. So when you remember that, like you just said, It softens your heart a little bit, and you realize this is another person. Yeah. And they’ve got hopes, dreams, feelings, right? And so being mindful of that is helpful.

Paige C. Clark 29:06
Yeah. So let’s talk about like that. And like, the students that you work with, and like, Do you have any like examples of just really seeing God’s hand and his provisioning over what you do every day?

Justin Tilghman 29:25
Yeah, um, so I teach mainly, I teach online mostly. And so what I have found, I’ve had students that I knew from the community I’ve also had students who were not from my community. I’ve had students that were believers and we’re openly sharing that I have students who were not and have openly shared that and for me in the classroom, like really trying to model for them what what I do with My colleagues like, hey, we can, because to me, that’s one of the things that we’ve lost the ability to do is to interact with who would don’t agree with. And so modeling that for them, showing that what that showed them, what that looks like to respectfully disagree and to share your thoughts, opens up a lot of doors. And I just think God has been God’s been gracious in my classrooms, to, for whatever reason, make them spaces where folks have felt safe to share things that that have been tough. I’ve gotten emails from students saying, Hey, I know it was out last week. This is why and I’m like, man, thank you for trusting me enough to share that with me and not just saying, I’m gonna be out. And so I’m trying really to see that as, again, talking about the secular sacred divide this, this calling to teach. I mean, I don’t, I do teach. I teach at a couple of different places outside of my full time job, I’ve got some adjunct jobs. But so I teach at a Bible college where I do get to teach theology, and the students are typically right there with me. But my daily job teaching is not at a Bible college. And it’s not in a in a theological background or anything like that. And so seeing both of those as a calling from the Lord and a trust from the Lord, in that the students he’s given me Why yes, they’re mostly adults. They, their his, his, there’s creation, they’re in his age. And so I might get to be hate uses cliche, but I might get to be the only Christian that they interact with. And the only Bible they read is what love people say. And so yeah, really trying to be mindful of that. And and how can I exhibit a Christ like heart here? And come across in a way that’s firm in the sense that I’ve got rules we have to follow we have. We have a syllabus, we have to follow it. But we’re in that can I show grace, even if it doesn’t look like Christian grace? But where can I show some grace, it’s the hey, look, life happens. I know, the syllabus says this, but I’m going to exercise some grace here. And it’s not related to big Jesus follower anything other than it comes from that, that heart of grace, but that even that has opened up doors like man, nobody’s ever done that for me before. I really appreciate that. And that opens up an opportunity to share Well, this is why I do that.

Paige C. Clark 32:27
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think too, when, when, when you’re talking with with students, especially, like, generalizing, I know, there’s like a lot of adult learners, but just, they’re in this like, super formative part of their life, like entering into college. And I think too, like, yes, you might be the only person who shows them Jesus. But also, you may be planting seeds that you don’t even know that you’re planting. And I think that’s like, I don’t know, an encouragement I want to give to anyone who’s listening have like, if you feel like you’re not seeking or like reaping the harvest, like, you may be planting something that is yours, you know, in the making. And and that is your opportunity to kind of speak Jesus. And in that place, even though it might not, I guess, like convert in a really quickly I know that’s like such, I’m not saying like converted, like, a Christian sense. I’m saying, like, convert in a marketing sense, because that’s how we talk, but also it kind of worked.

Justin Tilghman 33:39
Yeah, no, I think you’re exactly right. It’s it’s, you don’t know, do you use your journey metaphor from earlier, you don’t know where that person is on their journey and what part you’re playing? And I think so many times, I just think that evangelism, especially in the workplace, because I’ve wrestled with this. If I’m not blatantly sharing Jesus, in every conversation, I’m not doing what I’m called to do. And that’s not true. You know, Scripture plainly says, you know, some some plant the seeds, some water, some get the harvest, but God’s ultimately doing the growth and, and you don’t know what role you’re playing in that right. And he might not be calling you to do to seal the deal thing in the end. Yeah, he might be calling you to plant plant the first seed of why did he act differently? Nobody’s ever treated me like that. Right? He didn’t even say Jesus’s name. He just treated them differently. Right. So you’re right. You don’t know where you are in that process. So don’t I’ve tried to remind myself and I would encourage you to listen and don’t beat yourself up. If Well, I’m not I’m not I’m not witnessing more at work. Don’t don’t just have such a narrow definition of what witnessing is. Right. expand, expand that definition to you might be witnessing, but you don’t even know you’re doing it.

Paige C. Clark 34:46
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think too. There’s, there’s this piece where someone said this to me and it really humbled me in the moment of like, you might be You’re on this earth for that one person. Like, that might be your only only job is one person. And you don’t know who that person is, and you’re just moving through your life. And maybe it was just a sea dropped with this one person. And like, maybe that’s all God wants to use you for. And you’re like, oh, like, hopefully, you know, there’s more going on. And like, do I believe it’s just like one thing? And it’s not a one and done thing? No. Also, like, I think it gets us to pursue excellence and everything that we’re doing, and really knowing that, like, God doesn’t need us, he chooses us.

Justin Tilghman 35:43
Hmm. That’s yeah, that’s good. And you’re right, it’s, I think we get so bent up even even ourselves in performance, like, what am I doing? What am I doing? What am I doing? Am I doing enough for Jesus? Am I doing enough? am I measuring up and the good works, he’s prepared in advance for you to do. His descriptive plan says he’s gonna lead you into them. And so just follow him. And be authentic, and be the person who created you to be and let him deal with the work. Yeah. Plant, plant the seed water where you can if you get to reap the harvest, great. But we’ve all got a different part to play. And you’re right, don’t. Yeah, don’t don’t get so bent out of shape. If you’re not doing what you think you should be doing. Like you said, you wonder what part you might be playing, right? I remember that. It might be that moment where you think I do anything right in that situation. And that might be the very situation where you did exactly what you were.

Paige C. Clark 36:41
Right. I remember when I was in college, I was applying for like a summer job at this, like Christian camp. And I was like, going through the application. And there was like, one question that like, really rubbed me the wrong way. And I’m just like, realizing how like, like, I don’t know, their intentions of again, intentions. I don’t know their intentions of putting that question on the application. But it was like, Please detail the last time that you lead someone to Christ. Like, like very specifically, like, I was, like, you know, that, like, for me, that was like it like younger page was like off putting it like, I’ve never done that before, because I had it. But doesn’t mean I was in ministering to people throughout my life. I might have just not been there for that turning point. You know, or, or what? Or I didn’t know that they had a turning point or what have you. And so yeah, that was that was like really weird where I’m like, huh, like, I don’t I don’t know how. But also, like,

Justin Tilghman 37:43
it goes back to the Yeah, it goes back to that gifting thing. Like, yeah, you don’t like that might not be. The Lord might not be putting you at that point in my journey, because you’re just not gifted in it. I don’t. I mean, I’m not saying you know, you might be an excellent planter, you might be an excellent water. You might be an excellent harvester, who knows, but just trust that the Lord is going into the Lord uses all of us and he’s going to use you’re exactly where you are. Yeah, I’ve seen this question before, and it wrecks my brain. I’m like, Man, I don’t know how to. I know how I can fake an answer, right? Now to do that, but I mean, goodness, you know, if that’s what you’re defining as leaving someone to Christ, and man, I don’t know.

Paige C. Clark 38:24
All right. Yeah, I know. I am not a good water. Because in a very physical sense, I’m growing a garden right now. And everything is on a timer. Because if it’s not on a timer, it’s not going to happen. And those seats are going to die.

Justin Tilghman 38:43
But that’s why I’m thankful for their remind that reminder app and my phone.

Paige C. Clark 38:46
Oh, yes, yes, I have. Okay, this is very much off topic. But I have a, like smart watering system. Like it’s this little box, and it connects up to your hose. And there’s an app for it. And it’s solar powered. So like you don’t have to charge it up or anything. So there’s an app that connects to your location, and it like so if there’s a freeze warning, yes, we get freeze warnings in Arizona still, it still gets that cold freeze warning if it’s going to rain, if there’s gonna be multiple days of rain, so you can set your watering schedule, but if it’s like raining in the forecast, it will skip the day for you.

Justin Tilghman 39:27
Oh my goodness, I need to get hold of that. I need that for my garden. And for my chicken.

Paige C. Clark 39:31
Oh my gosh is magical. Like it’ll, it’ll skip it for you. You can set the timer. So right now it’s summer. So it’s like every morning at 6am it goes and waters my garden for five minutes. But if I ever need to change that, all I have to do is do a little app on my phone is my absolute favorite thing in the world. Anyways, there’s an app for that. There’s an app for that and that is why I’m not a water. I might be a planter to plant seeds. Yes, I should be pretty good at that. And so, in talking about authenticity and vulnerability, um, I like this question because I feel like it kind of opens the doors for us to like, just be real for a second and like really talk about, you know, where we struggle in terms of like, what our faith disciplines look like, you know, whether it is attending church, participating in a community, serving discipleship, whatever it is. So, like, which one of those is most difficult for you to apply to your life? And why do you think it that like, it uniquely applies to people who work nine to five?

Justin Tilghman 40:47
Ah, for me, it’s, I mean, it’s a discipline quiet down. Like that’s, and I hear a lot of people say that, but there’s, and I think it’s because my time is such a, it’s so hard to balance it and manage it. And. And I think, too, when we go into our quiet time, feeling like every time I go into it, I’ve got to come away with this massive feeling of just the spiritual feeling. So when we don’t get that feeling when we beat ourselves up, and as much as they’re actually going, Well, I’m not getting anything out of this. So I’m just gonna do it. And, and so that’s been the biggest thing for me of having to restrain my mindset, kind of like the house church thing of right. Sometimes God’s gonna meet me in this spot in a way that I’m gonna feel it. But sometimes, it’s just the act of me being present with him, whether I feel something out of it or not. And, and so that them and yeah, that’s, that’s the hardest thing for me, honestly, is that, that, that quiet time and then translating that into devotions with my family. And I know that that’s important, but it’s a struggle, like it’s a struggle to find time to do that. When I come home. I’m playing with the boys, I’m talking to my wife. Just to being flat, honest, the last thing I think about sometimes is sitting down and help having devotions as a family. I know I need to write, but it’s a struggle to do those two things for me. Because I feel like I’ve got so much time, and I get so busy. And it’s so easy to put other things in the place of that stuff.

Paige C. Clark 42:18
Yeah. And again, it’s one of those things that, you know, going into, it feels like a drag, but, you know, walking away, you’re just like, okay, like, you know, it wasn’t that bad. For me, especially with quiet time. It’s most difficult. Also, because we have a lot of inputs. If you think in our lives, we’re constantly it’s, you know, there’s some crazy number like we see, like 8000 advertisements a day or something like that. We are constantly being bombarded with information and things that want our attention, right, like, Netflix, my computer, like there’s an ad on my computer right here, my work laptop, it’s staring me back in the face right now. Or, like, if I were to open up my phone, or like, you know, here, here’s a good ad on my favorite seltzer from Trader Joe’s, like, you know what I mean? Like, everything is vying for my attention and reminds me and I just little shiny object syndrome for you reminds me that I need to go pick up more of these delicious seltzers from Trader Joe’s. But everything is vying for our attention. And and what we’re called to do when when we step into time with God, is to shut everything down and just like focus on Him and Him alone. And I think that’s why it’s like really, really hard. Especially like in our culture, with our smartphones and all that stuff.

Justin Tilghman 43:44
Yeah, and I try to have implemented a little bit of a practice in my life. And with my coaching clients, I tried to do the same thing. I know it’s convenient to have the Bible on your phone, and I have a journaling app on your phone. But don’t let that be where you do your quiet time because it’s so easy. Like you just sit for that notification pop up. And I’m like if you have to do it, put your phone on airplane mode. That’s what I’ve tried to do. Because that when at least nothing’s hopefully coming in. But But yeah, because you’re right, because it’s our the culture around us does not promote intentionality. It doesn’t promote authenticity, and it doesn’t promote quiet.

Paige C. Clark 44:21
Yeah, yeah, one one trick that I like to do, because I’m the same way where I, I love having kind of like my physical books, one because it does not allow me to go through web browsers or anything. But another trick that I like to tell people to do is like if you find yourself like Mindlessly scrolling or like just going and logging into an app, rearrange your apps. And then oh, mindlessly go. You might have found a thing because you have to go find it. And then you’re like, Wait, why am I trying to find Facebook? Why am I trying to find my email? And you’re like, oh, wait, I’m not trying to do that right now. So just rearrange your apps and your Fears that

Justin Tilghman 45:00
what if anybody out there is listening? It’d be awesome if they created an app where you could press that, and it would automatically rerender for you.

Paige C. Clark 45:08
It’s like app shuffle. And it’ll just like,

Justin Tilghman 45:11
yeah, yes. Something like that where you know, because? Because that’s a great idea. Yeah, you gotta take time to do it, or, like a feature in your phone where every, every five days, automatically rearranges your apps. That again,

Paige C. Clark 45:26
that’s such a good idea. Now I’m like, wanting to Google that and like, see if there exists? And if it doesn’t, you know, any software thing? Go out there and build it. Credit. Yeah. Wonderful, Justin. Great idea. So to kind of wrap us up here and our time together, this conversation has been so amazing. But I always like to leave our audience with one thing that they can walk away with one discipline, or faith practice that they can implement into their lives this week, to help them grow their relationship with Christ. What would it be?

Justin Tilghman 46:05
Yeah. I would say it kind of goes back to what we’re just talking about with authenticity. And I would encourage you, you know, I love that discussion we had about planting seeds and watering and, and I think a lot of folks who are in under fives, especially if it’s not an overtly Christian environment, I think we struggle with am I witnessing enough? Am I being a good example for Jesus, if I’m not late, if I haven’t worked out a gospel tract with somebody, have I done what I’m supposed to do. And I would just encourage you learn to be authentic. Don’t be afraid of being who God’s created you to be. Don’t be afraid of the strengths that you have. And don’t be afraid of the weaknesses that you have and learn to be authentic with people try to start doing that. Because you don’t know where you are in that person’s journey. Sometimes, like I said, sometimes the seeds I have planted and people have told me this, sometimes the seed I planted was I got angry. And the way I responded after that angry episode was the seed that was planted. And so if I’m, if I was too busy trying to act like I had it all together, I didn’t ever planted that seed in that person’s life. Now, that doesn’t mean go out and purposely do something you shouldn’t, because you want to plant a seed. But understand that God is much bigger than we give him credit for. And he’s designed you and created you. And so when you are being authentically you, you’re being who he’s created you to be. He’s using you how he wants to use you. And so that would be my big takeaway encouragement is don’t be afraid of being authentic, and being who you are.

Paige C. Clark 47:38
Yeah, I have this verse just popped into my mind. You know, Second Corinthians 12, nine, and it’s your strength is made perfect in my weakness. And that is exactly what you just said, there have like, people, the seed was planted for people to know Jesus, in your weakness, because I saw God show up.

Justin Tilghman 48:03
That’s great. Yeah, you’re right.

Paige C. Clark 48:07
All right, Justin, well, where can people find you? Where can they connect? Where can they learn more about you? And any links that you do mention? We will have them in the show notes down below?

Justin Tilghman 48:20
Yeah, so I’m on I’m on all the socials just, you know, just just the Tillman. My coaching stuff, which is kind of what I do a lot of is it’s balanced coaching and consulting. And so I’m on Instagram as the balanced life coach on Facebook as the balanced life coach, and my website is balanced cc.com. And that’s where I park a lot of stuff. Got a blog in there, I’ve got a podcast on how to live a more balanced life. So yeah, that’s, that’s where I hang out on the

Paige C. Clark 48:50
interwebs. Do you have a niche for your coaching? Like if someone’s listening? Yeah, so

Justin Tilghman 48:55
it’s around? Yeah, it’s around life purpose, core values and aligning those things. Look what we talked about today, like who’s God created you to be? Yeah. And I found most of the time, people’s anxiety and frustration and lack of fulfillment in life is because they’re not living into who God created them to be. They’re not taking the time to find out, what do I value and who am I created to be? And does my life line up with that? And so I do a lot of work with mainly a lot of what our clients whether they’re just, you know, whether their leaders or not, helping them start to live and lead out of who God’s created them to be, and found that they oftentimes when they do that live much more fulfilling lives. Yes,

Paige C. Clark 49:34
yes. Awesome. Justin. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate all the wonderful words I had to share and you know, where we’re where we’re at in the harvest we might not know.

Justin Tilghman 49:48
Right, well, thanks. Thanks for having me. It’s been a lot of fun.

Paige C. Clark 49:57
Thanks for joining us, if you liked what you We’re listening to make sure you subscribe and hit those five stars and we’ll catch you on the next episode