Podcast

Paige C. Clark 0:41
Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of nine to five faith. I am here with my new friend John Liddell. How are you today? John?

John Liddle 0:50
I’m wonderful. Thanks so much. I really appreciate you having me on page.

Paige C. Clark 0:54
Yeah, I’m so excited. And John, I just love it because I know you do radio broadcasts and so I like to close my eyes and just like hear people and they like, Have you ever radio voice?

John Liddle 1:08
Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. I, you know, you don’t? You’re not really born with a radio voice. Like, almost nobody is. Okay, I didn’t know at the time. I didn’t Yeah, you just develop it over time, or almost nobody, you know, there, there are some people that can just roll out of bed and sound wonderful. But just over time you develop the ability to put the vocal cords together in the right way.

Paige C. Clark 1:34
Now, is it like voice acting where like, you can change it? Or like does it just kind of become how, you

John Liddle 1:42
know, I think it just evolves into kind of how you talk or okay, you know, I’ve got kind of a broadcasting voice sometimes like, Alright, when I’m on K URL, the it’s a little bit more like this. So and, and then when I’m doing sports broadcast, it can get a little bit more shouty because here’s the deal for tonight’s game, the SMU Mustangs really want to come out there and they want to play great tonight. And so there’s just a little it’s a little bit more active. And then if your voice acting, then you can do anything you want it. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 2:11
makes sense. I think like, I’m a little bit of a writer. And so it’s like writing for your audience. And so yours is speaking for your audience. It’s like, exactly, you’re not just speaking, it’s not the words, you’re saying. It’s how you’re saying it.

John Liddle 2:23
So today, I will try to speak like I normally speak. So I’ll be normal, John,

Paige C. Clark 2:30
fair enough. And I think the fact that I said you have a voice for radio is a much better compliment than the alternative, which is you have a face for radio, which is just like the biggest insult in the world. So

John Liddle 2:42
well. I don’t know if it’s the biggest insult in the world. I mean, especially around when when you’ve been in radio for as long as I have, you know, you hear it twice a week. So it’s, it’s, it’s totally cool. I can come up with better insults. I do for

Paige C. Clark 2:57
it’s not what we’re here for. But I do have those moments when I’m listening to the radio and then like, the evolution of social media when then like, you can go look at people’s faces, you’re like, that’s not what I was thinking at all or when they when you’re reading a book, and then they make it into a movie and you’re like, Oh, that’s not how I pictured the characters at all.

John Liddle 3:16
Yeah, I’m sure I really disappoint people in that way. A lot. What you know, that’s, that’s okay. That’s okay, though. I’m, I am. I am what I am, as Popeye said,

Paige C. Clark 3:28
Yep, that works. So tell us a little bit more about yourself and the radio and the broadcasting and all that fun stuff? Well,

John Liddle 3:38
yeah, if we’re here to talk about our nine to five, my nine to five is more like a 6am to 2pm. And so I work at this news radio station is not news talk, we don’t do a bunch of opinion talk it is it is News Radio. So it’s news and it’s traffic, and it’s whether and I’m an anchor on that station 10 80k rally in Dallas. And then in addition to that, I really my first love is sports in sports broadcasting and so I do a lot just as much as I can possibly get my hands on or my voice on you know, that could be radio play by play for football or basketball or whatever or it could be on the TV which is turned into the streaming side of thing was things like on ESPN plus and stuff like that. So I do a lot of that in this area. And then I just kind of depends on what time type time of year it is. I do some other things on the side as well. Like I’m the public address it voice of the Dallas wings during the summer. I’ve got my my podcast where you’re going which is a total passion project of mine that I’m really enjoying putting my whole heart into. So that’s that’s kind of how I do things right now.

Paige C. Clark 4:54
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And I feel like, too I have so many questions about the I’m the skill of sports announcing because I can hardly keep my eye on the ball or the puck or whatever game it is, let alone tell you what is happening in real time.

John Liddle 5:13
Right? Well, it is. You know, we do have cheat sheets. And I honestly I just happen to have one sitting here. I didn’t I didn’t prepare this for you like I should have. But this is a spotting board. I actually for a football game that I did a few weeks back, but you know, as you can see there, and I’m gonna get myself away from my microphone. So I don’t know exactly how to do this. But you can kind of see out of the corner here. Yeah, you got the quarterback up there. You got receivers, you got running backs, okay. Okay, here on the bottom, you got the tents and stuff. And so you’ve got all the stats and all the places they’re from and how to phonetically say their names, and all those sort of things. And that really helps me keep things in line. And keep me in line when I’m doing a ballgame. And thankfully, when I do basketball, I don’t have to keep up with nearly as many names. Yeah, I do when we’re talking about football season. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 6:07
for sure. Man, I feel like I saw like, I saw the genie behind the curtain is like, I get to learn all the things. And that really cool sneak peek. I had no idea. That’s really awesome. I remember when I was in high school, one of our teachers was actually did part time voice work for the LA Dodgers. And so like, I’m not gonna do like any kind of impression, but like, sometimes he would do the morning announcements in his announcing voice. Yeah. And so it was always really fun. Because you would hear him like, Good morning, Glendora. And it was just I was like, fun thing to do. So I always remember, you know, having that kind of connection to to the LA Dodgers, weirdly enough, but Well, it’s

John Liddle 6:55
very cool. It was it was a good impression, though. Yeah, that is one thing I noticed about you and listening to your show. You got a great voice. Oh, thank you. Fantastic voice. Keep going. You’ve got that part of it down.

Paige C. Clark 7:06
Thank you. I appreciate that. And you know, I’d like to, it’s evolved over time, in terms of the level of comfort I had, in talking to other people. My coworker forced me into being on camera and talking on like audio and everything. When we when we worked for a company. And we started doing like live shows and stuff like that. And she forced me to be on camera, and it was so uncomfortable. And then I realized I’m like, Oh, I kind of love doing this. And then you you know, you just get comfortable and you just like it’s just talking it helps a lot when it’s like not in front of a live audience. I feel like that is like a whole other bundle of nerves.

John Liddle 7:44
It isn’t another bundle of nerves. But it’s another level of excitement too. Yeah, there’s, there’s really nothing like talking to people when they’re live and they can see you and stuff. And sometimes I don’t even know what I say just because it makes me so excited. So I can craft it. You should take this show on the road sometime. That would be interesting, how fired up you get and just kind of crazy things. And

Paige C. Clark 8:08
I’m Italian so I’m like very, like active with my hands. And my body movements. It just happens. Now I have like a way out there question feel free to pass. But what is your biggest like snafu when you’ve ever like done, you know, broadcasting or laying, you know, with sports, like the biggest thing that you’ve accidentally said, if you have one,

John Liddle 8:33
um, you know, my my biggest public failure, if you will, it didn’t really come in broadcasting, it came in singing actually I sing a lot Okay? anthems okay. Like, you know, professional sporting events, right area. And so I Rangers game baseball game four years ago. And I did the national anthem. And then I did God Bless America for this game against the twins and everything went great for the national anthem went outstanding. And it was back before all the pitching rules changed and stuff. It was a really hot night. We didn’t have a you know, an indoor stadium, everything was outdoors. It was 100 degree day, it was just ridiculously hot. So three hours later, I dragged myself out there for God bless America. And there’s a lot more to it. But basically the bottom line is I started on the wrong note. I started a little too high. And everything was sounding really pretty good. Up until that final note where I went up there and I tried to hit it and I had no steam left and it came out so wobbly and awful. And I’m not exaggerating when I say it did I mean for me go viral. I’m talking about like, you know, 500,000 views on Twitter, all those sorts of things. Because it was a very, it was a very public failure. But yeah, and that was in front of like, 30,000 people plus whoever was watching on TV. Yeah. So if I mess up now, even on the radio, say something silly or Yeah, you know, get something mixed up or I’d say something’s a touchdown when it’s really not. Yeah, I can really think back and be like, You know what, I’ve been through a lot worse than this, it is going to be okay.

Paige C. Clark 10:26
Oh, goodness, gracious. That’s I’m very sorry that happened to you. But I think part of it is like, owning not our mistakes, but just like owning our humanity and like, humility with it. I was listening to a speaker the other day, and she says, We can either get humble or we can get humiliated. And I was like, yes, yes. That.

John Liddle 10:48
Absolutely. And I laughed as soon as it happened. And, you know, a lot of my friends came to my defense when that happened. And, you know, obviously, if you if you don’t know me, then it was very laughable moment, it was very funny. But you know, my ability to laugh at the moment not to put myself down, but just to say, you know, what, sometimes we screw up and then to get back out there and do it again, is really, really big. And I’ve had a chance to do it on more stages and sing in front of former President Bush and stuff like that, since the bad moment happened. And so, you know, it’s, it’s all worked out, just yeah,

Paige C. Clark 11:26
I’m gonna knock on wood. Because like, I don’t think that moment has happened yet for me. But like, I’m always terrified, because like, sometimes this has no filter. And so like, the first time I ever did, like, live shows and stuff, I’m like, I’m gonna cuss. Like, I’m good. I’m gonna let something slip. And it’s not going to be good. Thank goodness, it hasn’t happened yet. Or when it has, it’s like been intentional and not like accidental and it’s been terrible. So like, fingers crossed that like that can still hold off a little bit. But yeah, that that’s, I believe your biggest fear. Gonna be all right. So tell me a little bit about like, the intersection of like, your career and your faith. And I always like to kind of reel it back of like, did your career start? And then you came to faith? Or have you always been a Christian? Like, take us through a little bit of that journey? And what that looks like,

John Liddle 12:21
I appreciate you asking that. Um, you know, definitely, I came to faith when I was a kid. And okay, but I, you know, I do look at my life. And I’m like, you know, while I have always been a Christian, like, since I was seven years old, certainly the way I was actually submitted and surrendered, and, you know, practicing. Well, I mean, just, yeah, like truly practicing. Yeah, right. But you can even be in church and not practicing it, you can be outwardly saying one thing, and then really not doing it, right. I mean, that’s evolved over time. And so I will say this, as long as I’ve been in the workforce, I’ve been a Christian, I’ve been, I don’t want to say outspoken about that. I’ve been proud of that. I’ve been very, very secure in that. But I really do think over the last few years, that that God has shown me, again, we talked about being humbled, you know, just a new level of humility, even when it comes to my faith, and like what it means to be a Christian in the workplace, I think of myself, you know, 20 years ago, and, you know, we are all idiots when we were 18, or, you know, whatever age that was, but I think of being a server at a, at a restaurant, and, you know, hanging out with all the kids, they were all doing, you know, whatever the drinking, cussing, smoking, drugs, all that sort of thing. And I was, instead of like, meeting them where they were, I was the person that was, like, calling them out for it, or just had my nose in the air, or, like, I can’t believe you guys do that stuff. I don’t do that. Stuff like that. And I just, I just didn’t know how to, you know, humbly walk into his face, and just, hey, let’s let the light of Jesus shine through, you know, do a lot of preaching and if necessary, open up your mouth, you know, right. And that it’s not my job to convict them of their sin. It’s my job to be, you know, a friend to them and to love them. And maybe if there’s something that’s going on in their life that they want to talk about, I can, I can be a friend to them, and I wasn’t I wasn’t that because I just didn’t know. I think I grew up in the in the Baptist Church in the 90s. And so there was a lot of us versus the world type of stuff going on. And I just didn’t know how to handle that. So, you know, I wasn’t doing anything on purpose. I wasn’t trying to hurt anybody’s feelings on purpose, but I’m sure I did. And I’m sure I alienated myself and gave Christians a bad name for, you know, just the type of Christian that I was, I thought I was being a good person, but I wasn’t a good friend, I wasn’t a good, you know, a safe person to talk to. Right, as we say, and I’m, you know, I’m not gonna pat myself on the on the back. But that has changed over the years, right? It’s more of Hey, be their friend for a beat anybody’s friend first. That’s really all I’m here to be. And, you know, obviously, do the right things in the workplace, just like do the right things in life. It’s but you but it but it’s not about, you know, assembling a Bible study at work or something like that, in order to prove that you are a good Christian or something like that, or, you know, separating yourself as if to say, No, I’m above you guys. That’s not what we’re called to do. I don’t think and yeah. And so that’s how it’s changed for me over the years. So I’ve, I’ve always been a person of faith, but I’ve been a less mature person of faith than I am today, when it comes to how I interact with people in the workplace in a phased manner.

Paige C. Clark 16:17
Yeah, that’s fair enough, I think. I think looking back, I’m even writing some articles right now for a series in like September, October. And I’m like writing these and I’m like, if like I’m hypocritical against all this stuff, like, if you go back and like, look at my social or look at my old blogs, you’ll find myself contradicting myself, but I’m basing this and in what I believe and in Scripture, and there’s always that evolution of, you know, where we have been and where we’re at now. And I actually follow this one gallon social. And her handles is I used to be a psychic. And she’s a Christian. And she like came from like, New Age psychic kind of mentality, and spirituality and like, came over to Jesus and the good side, and she has this whole thing of like, why she keeps up her old posts. And she’s like, I want people to see the evidence of Jesus in my life. And that transformation is the proof of, of Jesus. And I was like, Yeah, I like that.

John Liddle 17:29
You know, and I’m caught in this. You know, thing between, sometimes in, there’s not a lot out there, I don’t think you could find on me on social media that you’re like, oh, my gosh, I can’t believe you said that. But, you know, when it is appropriate, you know, just to help other people know, they’re not alone be like, listen, I used to do this, or I used to think this or I was not, right, in this way. And having the humility to say that and talk about, you know, that transformation, that journey that really can help encourage somebody who is maybe a little bit closer to where I was, and whatever area of life. So I think that I really commend that person for doing that. I think that’s, you know, that’s, that’s honest. And that’s real of her for sure. And I think it can be used in a testimony, no doubt. Yeah. And I think

Paige C. Clark 18:26
the problem like some Christians can find themselves in is like feeling, or other people who are not Christians, seeing Christians and feeling like that they can’t relate and like, Oh, you don’t know what I’ve been through. You don’t know what it’s like, blah, blah, blah. And really, it’s, you know, a conversation of like, No, I’ve been in your shoes. I know what it’s like, there’s this really great book. It’s called gay girl, good God. And as by I think, as Jackie or Jacqueline Hill, Perry, I think is her name. And I love that book, because it’s taking a topic where people are just like, You don’t understand. And she’s like, No, like, I understand. I’ve been there. I’ve walked that road. And I think that’s just what sharing our testimony is all about. So Oh, absolutely.

John Liddle 19:15
You know, and some people walk that road. And, you know, they’re doing it, you know, publicly, you know, they just they they’re not they don’t believe in God. And so they are they don’t believe that God’s for them. And so, they do whatever they want to do. Or there are people like me, who have had been Christians have known about God knows what I wanted to do, but I wasn’t doing it and I kind of was, you know, living a lie in areas of my life that you know, but that’s the most powerful part of my story now is, you know, where he’s, he’s taken me from death in that area to life not perfection, but just just life and freedom.

Paige C. Clark 20:03
Yeah, absolutely. Now you work in the media space, which I work in the tech space. So I feel like the stereotypical culture that we might associate with media and with tech is really, really prevalent in that it’s very secular and kind of that it’s difficult to be a Christian, at least that’s a stereotype. Have you found yourself in any situations like that, working in the media or anything along those lines,

John Liddle 20:34
difficult to be a Christian? And I was, I was thinking about this, I don’t find it, you know, difficult to be a Christian in my space. It’s just like, how do I a walk out my faith and I and I, and do it unapologetically, while at the same time, not tried to hit people over the head with a Bible. So you know, and there is a little bit of a line to walk there. And so I say it’s not hard. But then I talked about how I’ve got to toe a line, right, here’s how I do it. And I want to credit, you know, my boss right now, and really my bosses that, really, they’ve given me kind of editorial control. I don’t remember ever a time where I’ve had to dial back something I’ve said or okay, no retract or like, well, you really need to talk about this, you know, topic, because everybody’s talking about it really doesn’t happen in my particular space. And I don’t. And so, now, that isn’t to say that I don’t talk about issues, or I don’t interview people about issues that they feel are important that I don’t necessarily personally, if you got right down to it agree with, but as a member of the media, which, you know, I just pause every time I say that because it gets such a negative connotation. Right. Right. Right. As a member of the media, here’s, here’s, I’ll, I’ll use this word in front. Instead, journalists as a journalist, yes, I need to ask questions and tell stories from all sides. Right. And that is important to me, that like really important to me, and I’m not, I’m not a perfectionist in that way. But if I tell a story from one side, I need to be open to telling it from another. And I know that I think that’s hard for everybody. Like, it doesn’t matter what you believe that’s hard not to bring your personal beliefs into it. Yeah. And sometimes I do let people into it a little bit on the radio, whether it be like my, you know, my belief in God or something like that. But when we get down to those really controversial topics, yeah. Abortion, guns, things like that. I don’t think religion belongs in those areas in those spaces. I don’t think my belief system from a religious perspective, from a relationship with God perspective, like, it really doesn’t like factor in it. For me personally, I know, other people believe differently. Yeah. You know, and so, when I’m doing stories like that, I can tell both sides because I really do believe in unity, I believe in bringing everybody together and that we have a lot more in common than we do. You know, not in common. If people want to blame the media for putting people on sides, I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know. Whatever blame you like, people feel like they need somebody to blame. Like, I feel like I need somebody to blame because I don’t want to blame the media. So I want to blame politicians. Politicians, blame the media, politicians blame, you know, the the right blames the left and the left blames the right. We’ve got to stop blaming each other man, we’ve got to stop blaming each other. It’s, you know, I so you believe different than leaving me. All right. Okay. No big deal. Yeah, you know, I don’t let’s let’s move on. And let’s think about some things that we can agree on. Yeah. Let’s think about some things that are basic to humanity. Not basic to what the right ones or what the left ones. I know, this has been a rambly answer. No, but it’s not. It’s not easy. It’s not easy to answer. So anyway, all that to say, I am not censored as a member of the media. I’m not told what to say. I am not slapped on the wrist for it. Seeing something that’s more right leaning? You know, because I’m not I’m not at all. And I. And I hate it if if people are in that situation, but that is not my experience, my experience is, I want to connect with people, I want to unify people, we do want to entertain people a little bit, and we want to inform people. Yeah. And if I’m doing that, then I’m doing my job correctly. And then, on top of that, you know, just for me, personally, I want to do it as a person that carries hope, and it carries positivity and carries the light of Jesus as well. Yeah, so I’ll stop talking on that answer. And I’ll let you dive into anything specifically that interested you in what I had to say.

Paige C. Clark 25:49
I mean, it was really interesting to me. I think the one thing I just talked with someone else on on the on the podcast about this, but what I tend to go for is looking at, you know, when when your political conversations are, like, top of the headline conversations, I think, for the vast majority of issues, quote, unquote, issues in the American life. We all agree on the outcome. For the majority of things, we all agree on the outcome, how we accomplish that outcome is what is debated and what is fought over. So for example, guns, right? We all want less people to die. Like, like, ultimately be people who are for pro gun or whatever. They want to not die. And people who are, you know, trying to restrict guns, they want mass shootings not to happen. At the end of the day, everyone wants people to not to die. So like, we agree on that. And I think once like people are able to like be like, Okay, we agree on the finish line. Like the disagreement is not on the finish line, the disagreement is how we get there. I think that we’re able to touch on each other’s humanity a little bit more.

John Liddle 27:31
Yeah, I agree. I certainly agree with that. And it doesn’t help. And, you know, I don’t want to make it sound like I’m against people on the left or on the right, because I’m really like, not again, I want to unify everybody. Right, when something happens. And then the first thing the the people on the left do is I don’t want your thoughts and prayers, because they’re attacking religion. Yeah, they’re attacking. You know, the fact that obviously the right doesn’t want to give up their guns. Right. And then the, and then they like, absolutely blame it on people that want to hold on to their guns, like when that is that is the opposite of unifying. Right. And I don’t know how it helps anybody. Yeah. I don’t know how it how it truly helps the victims to point a finger at like, truly innocent people. Right. You know, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, because I really, honestly, I want to I really, I’m really, like, super down the middle on almost everything. Yeah. And so I’m not trying to attack people on the left at all in saying that I just, I think that’s just an example. Right? Because, yeah, there are right leaning people who do that as well. You know, when something goes bad in the economy, like we’ve seen over the last few years, they point the finger, like, like you said, the end is we all want a good economy. Right? Right. And so whoever happens to be in power, if the economy goes bad, then the opposite party is going to point a finger at the current administration. Right, that’s exactly what we’ve seen. Yeah. Yeah. With these little stickers on the gas pumps that you know, of President Biden saying, I did that. I mean, this is the that the it’s all disgusting. It’s all you know, pointing fingers and blame in order to elevate your position. And it’s it’s the part of covering the news and covering politics that really, like sometimes physically hurts me like yeah, because i i I am a unifier. I will I’m the guy that wants everybody to get along. Right. I’m an encourager, and I am. I’m really, really tired of seeing people. Yeah. Point across the island shouting at each other.

Paige C. Clark 30:15
Yeah, for sure. Like all us. I mean, you’re in Texas, right? Yeah. And so like, we’re border states right here, right? Like, you look at immigration and illegal border crossings. And, like, at the end of the day, again, both sides just want those people to be safe and have you know, to be healthy, and, you know, not to be taken advantage of. Right, like, but where that happens, and how that happens. looks very different. Do you feel like, I’m not gonna, that was a really terrible like, way to roll into my next question. I’m not going to ask you a question about immigration. But that was just another example. Okay, cuz I ain’t

John Liddle 30:59
got no answers. Ah,

Paige C. Clark 31:00
segue. Do you feel like you have kind of the freedom? You said you weren’t centered, meaning like, people are not like, you know, quieting your voice in terms of like, what you say and how you say it? Do you ever feel like you have the right? Obviously, you have the legal right, but kind of the right in as a journalist to not report on things. Something crosses your moral boundary? Or has this gosh,

John Liddle 31:44
yes, no, no, I have a right to not report on something.

Paige C. Clark 31:51
Meaning Well, I mean, it’s something being like going to, like, say, a story comes across and you like, tell it like your boss, like, Hey, I’m really uncomfortable. reporting on this, we’re talking about

John Liddle 32:01
I’m just trying to think of what you know, if something is newsworthy, and that kind of brings into question like a whole nother fish to fry, which is what is newsworthy? Yeah. You know, something that is newsworthy to Newsmax is not newsworthy to CNN. Right. And, and so, and vice versa. Right. And so, you know, for us as a very down the middle organization, you know, we have not been like, after Hunter Biden’s you know, laptop or whatever, the last five years, we don’t care, you know, Intel, actually, something happens, you know, with the, you know, the widget has a little bit, but you know, it’s it’s not something that we’re on, we’re on a witch hunt against the left. And the same thing for anything on the right side, anything that’s on the fringe, we’re not going to go after it. You know, we’re going to look down the middle. And so it kind of depends on the news organization. And then you got also got to think we only have so much time as well. So I know I’m answering your question with that’s not the whole question. Yeah. Here’s the deal. If something is newsworthy, and there’s no doubt that it’s newsworthy, I’m, they write the story for me. I’m gonna read it. Okay. I’m not going to. Because I mean, the, hopefully we’re doing the right thing. The only thing I would admit, omit is if somebody unintentionally wrote the story with bias, and there are words in there that I shouldn’t say I need to say something more down the middle. I’ve done that before. Right? Somebody writes something from the left perspective or the right perspective, I try to look for those buzzwords and take them out. Because I don’t want to inflame anybody on either side and I want to look at it. Middle. Okay, like what we experienced in our, our jobs, is it, it goes to, you know, there is an opinion on what happened on January 6, the right, right, people. CNN uses the word insurrection, CBS News uses the word insurrection, you will not find Fox News using the word insurrection or something like that, or maybe they say attack on the Capitol. I don’t watch enough, all right. But, you know, even like phrasing like that, you’ve got to be very, very careful. Yeah. Because you don’t want to even appear to have bias and that is even more important to me. Because while I work with people where I know their leanings or left or right, yeah, I truly am like somebody that’s now in the middle. Yeah, like I take some convincing from either side. And so I truly don’t want to inflame anybody. Yeah, I don’t want to give anybody for any reason to tune me out because they think I’m left leaning or right leaning. And so, you know, another thing like that in the news is to use the word, illegal immigrant, D word migrant. That is, and

Paige C. Clark 35:17
I tried to be I don’t know if you notice when I chose my words I was like, okay,

John Liddle 35:22
exactly. And so you, you get the sense of, of what I’m saying that words really do matter. Yeah. And even if Okay, I think it’s I think it’s factual, that, you know, those are the people that crossed the border illegally are in the country illegally. And so you could say illegal immigrant, but over time, phraseology changes, and all the sudden you’re more in one camp than the other simply by using a phrase. Yeah. Simply by using the word insurrection. Yeah, it basically, it reveals it out that I’m, then I’m left leaning. And, and so you’ve really got to watch that stuff. So that’s the only part that I would omit. Yeah. Okay. If I’m telling a story, if I’m giving a story that I am I, you know, doing it in in as unbiased away as I possibly can?

Paige C. Clark 36:20
Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I think too, like, I totally know what you’re talking about in terms of like, choosing your words, I remember when the George Floyd situation was happening, and the company that I was working for, released a statement. And I remember trying, I’m definitely I was definitely more right than my co workers. So like, I tried to give the voice of the people who would not against like, right or wrong here, but like, when we’re putting out this statement, let’s make sure it is very all encompassing, in terms of what we can say about it, and I remember, I mean, I tried to push back, it wasn’t well, it wasn’t received. But they they had said Black Lives Matter. And it was all about the capitalization of those letters. And I said, if we use black lives matter, it was the whole whole thing. And it was more in regards to the general idea than the organization. I said, if we take away the capitalization of those words, we’re not aligning with the organization versus where if we were to capitalize those words, it would look like as if we are aligning with the organization. So and it was beyond my paygrade to decide whether or not we’re aligning with the organization. But I want it to be a voice of like, hey, from like an outsider’s perspective, and someone who believes very differently than a lot of the majority of employees here. This is how it could be perceived as as US aligning with this organization that, from my perspective, we have not committed to aligning you to. And so it’s, I totally get what you mean. It’s just like those little things. Now, they still live and capitalize it, and then had to deal with that feedback. But I spoke my piece, but you have to do it very strategically.

John Liddle 38:31
Yeah. And, you know, it. It is interesting. And, thankfully, things like Black Lives Matter. You know, we are not as a media organization. We don’t get behind any organization. Right, you know, we tell the stories. And so that is very, very helpful to us that we don’t have to go into that. But even even then, you know, you’ve got to be careful with words like before, in, and this just goes back to being factual, you know, before the police officers were convicted, you

Paige C. Clark 39:15
was that murdered?

John Liddle 39:17
You couldn’t call it murder. Right, when they but when they were convicted, it absolutely is murder because they have been convicted. And no, I don’t want to say most people don’t get that. But a lot of people online. You know, they just Yeah, they just don’t understand. You know, they they see what happened in the, in their judging in their minds. That’s a murder. And it didn’t add up. It was by a jury. Yeah. A jury said yes. Yeah, it is murder. And so you had to make sure before the verdict came in. Yeah. Yeah. That Derek Chauvin was accused of murder, not that he murdered George Floyd. Right, you know, and so, yeah, there are Oh, yes.

Paige C. Clark 40:01
So many situations, what was

John Liddle 40:03
the situation bear trap? So we can, you can, too. But thankfully for us, thankfully, I’m so grateful that I have the just just the desire and the what I can fall back on. Alright is I can look into it and see if it’s if it’s truth or not. Is it factual? That’s all I’m after? Yeah. Is it factual?

Paige C. Clark 40:26
I’ll give this account a shout out because I think that they do a really great like way of kind of splitting things down the middle is the pourover news. It’s kind of a Christian based organization, but it but it reports the news, and always tries to one take a very, like, factual approach to it. But then also, they, they always conclude it to like, how should we as Christians respond to the situation. So I’ll give them a little shout out because I really enjoy reading their content, if you are ever like, I don’t know how I should feel about this as a Christian, they kind of help you there. So let’s get Yeah, pourover news, I think, I don’t know if they have a website, I’m, I’m a social media person, I follow them on social media. Um, talk to me a little bit about like, A Day in the Life a week in the life of John, and like, what does your faith and church involvement look like? Are you able to, you know, are you traveling a lot? Or are you you know, pretty homebound? Or what does that look like? Are you able to be involved in your church, except I’m,

John Liddle 41:40
I’m pretty DFW bound. And I’m very involved in my church. And so it’s gonna mean every Sunday and I serve with the kids, and then I go to the actual service. And then I have got a, a small group of guys that I’m involved with, and we meet every Wednesday night at a taco shop near church. And we have an hour and a half of conversation about what happened in the, in the service that week. As far as what what we talked about like this last week, we talked about forgiveness. So we’re gonna dive deep into forgiveness for an hour and a half, in kind of get into that. And then, in addition to that, I also am a kid’s leadership experience, coach, and so this is a deal with you for fourth and fifth graders at my church, where it’s like, it’s, it’s kind of like their first serving opportunity, like formal serving opportunity in the church. And so get opportunities come

Paige C. Clark 42:37
Yeah, love it. Well, yeah, absolutely.

John Liddle 42:39
I mean, love, just like, you know, the end just and we also get to dive a little bit deeper into concepts than we do in a typical kids service on a Sunday. And so we don’t just go into all right, this week, we’ll talk about how Jesus has forgiven me, we go a little bit deeper into that, we’ll talk about that, you know, we’ve got these Wednesday gatherings that we do monthly, and then we get together with this particular group of kids like this pot of 10 kids. And, and we just, we go a little bit deeper, and then they’ve got objectives that they’re, you know, trying to think about all month, and it could be like, Hey, do an extra chore at home, if we’re talking about service or, you know, meet another kid at school and talk about what they want to talk about. And it’s just, it’s wonderful. It’s going to be my second year involved in it. It’s a school time thing. And it’s just, you get so much joy from seeing kids light bulbs go on with these with these concepts that are hard for us as adults to get sometimes, you know, what? Why should I forgive? What’s the meaning of forgiveness? Why, yeah, you know, what’s the what’s the upside here? And so it is just a really joyful time. So those, those are the main things that I do with with my church, and yeah, in Texas right now.

Paige C. Clark 44:07
Yeah. Now has your schedule. Like maybe it has allowed for you to be differently involved? Or maybe it’s hindered your involvement in your church just because you are working a little bit weirder hours?

John Liddle 44:21
Well, this is a great conversation, because, I mean, I had an opportunity last year to get involved with kids leadership experience, and it would mean giving up several times during the year money making opportunities for myself opportunities to do ballgames which the ballgames I do, you know, they’re, you know, freelance basis. And so I don’t do that game, and I don’t give that $400 But I committed to this thing. I committed to, you know, this is something that God has called me to do during the season. Then I’m going to turn that game down. And so it was A great thing that God called me to do, because it really, like, helped my trust in him financially. You know, and just being like, God, if, if you want me to do this, then you’re going to provide for me, I don’t have to think that, oh, I can’t make it to church because I’ve got work. Yeah, no, I can choose to make church, I can choose to make my relationship with God, my service, how I’m working with these kids a priority. Like if we say that, you know, hey, God’s first in my life, and then my family, and then my work. We, we need to follow through that with our actions. And if God has called us to something, then we need to say no, to work. Yeah. And it really gave me an opportunity to do that. And it wasn’t an easy decision to make. And sometimes I was just like, it was like, gritting your teeth, and, you know, just bearing it and being like, Okay, God, you told me to do this, I don’t necessarily want to do it. But, you know, just either believing that God’s going to make up for those finances elsewhere, or that I don’t truly need that money that, you know, it’s yeah, I’m gonna I’m gonna get by anyway. And so that was a really like, an another level. Like, God’s always taking us to another level. He’s always challenging us in some way. And if you’re not feeling challenged right now, then you’re probably not growing. And I, and so, you know, we’re supposed to thank him. For those times, when we’re challenged, we’re supposed to thank him for those lessons that he’s teaching us. And so that was definitely the biggest lesson in the last year. So let’s see what kind of lessons he’s got for me coming up here. Because, you know, you know, we we never stopped growing as, as Christians were either growing, or we’re, you know, giving up some ground that God has helped us take, and let’s keep plowing forward. Let’s keep taking ground because that’s the most important thing in our life. It’s not, it’s not work.

Paige C. Clark 47:23
Yeah. My pastor always says, especially like, mostly speaking to like, obviously, Western culture, because we live in America. But he says, you know, here in Western culture, we show our affections with our time and our money. So how are you spending your time? And how are you spending your money? And do those things line up with what God is asking you to do?

John Liddle 47:47
And even these days, I think you would agree with me that time is, is even the biggest people can throw money at stuff because they make it right. And but they, they don’t have to maybe they’ve got just too much money in the Yeah, that time is the bigger sacrifice. Yeah, you know, and time is always something that we’re looking for more of. Yeah. You know, and so rearranging our time, hey, he’s absolutely right about money, too. But at least in my, in my recent few years, the time putting God first with my time and putting my family next with my time is your that’s the biggest test for me. Yeah, for sure.

Paige C. Clark 48:36
Yeah. And I think that’s also why I just like love these conversations on this podcast, because we spend 40 hours a week, roughly, the average person spends 40 hours a week working, and how are we spending that time? And how can we use that time to be God honoring and God centering and, and not see it as like, just something that we do?

John Liddle 49:02
You know, and I think I just love that our church had a chance to for almost six months, we went through a series called Hope carrier, where we talked about, you know, how we can, you know, carry hope into the world in every single area. And so, yes, that includes church. Okay, how are we, you know, carrying help in church, and how are we carrying hope and family? But then how are we carrying hope in education? And so that’s kids going to school and how are we carrying hope in, you know, whatever kind of job that we have, and it was so eye opening to, I think, as a as a church family to go on this journey together, of just trying to figure out how we can be more intentional about that and not put Our job in a box over here in church in a box over here and family in a box over here. You know, it’s all, like, it’s all supposed to be God honoring, and it’s all like part of this life that we’re living, you know, that is first and foremost, to honor God, and to love others. And you know, and so, for me, it, it was something I was, I felt like I was already kind of passionate about, but it definitely helped me know that whatever I do, whatever I do, I can do it with the spirit of carrying hope. And that could mean answering an email, that could be in just saying hi to, you know, the security worker that’s downstairs, it’s about to fall asleep, because she’s been there, you know, overnight, and it’s 6am when I get to work, and you know, just making sure to greet her with a smile, and, you know, in, in being intentional about conversations and meeting needs, that we see as well. And there are just a lot of opportunities for that there’s even opportunity for me in my job as a sports broadcaster, because, you know, how much am I able to keep it about positivity? How much am I able to just kind of brag on these, I do a lot of college games. I was gonna say kids, brag on these kids, and you know, just their, their God given abilities, quite frankly, maybe I don’t say it exactly like that. Right. You know, I’m, I’m, I’m heaping praise on lifting others up more than I am, you know, tearing down, right. And it’s become through, you know, the last year or so a lot more natural to do that. And it’s like, you don’t even bat an eye. Yeah, almost anything, almost anything that we can do, whether it be social media technology, it you know, certainly health care, media, whatever we do, we can do it for the glory of God, we absolutely can. And, and, and so we don’t have to worry about how do I bring God into my job? How do I do, you know, if you’re just walking with God every day, then I mean, like, you’re literally carrying

Paige C. Clark 52:32
the Holy Spirit pour from you.

John Liddle 52:35
Absolutely. It’s literally you’re literally carrying it into your workplace, and you don’t have to let the workplace or wherever you are, impact, you know, you are impacting, you know, God is impacting the space around you. Because, you know, you carry that incredible connection with God, the Holy Spirit with you, wherever you go in wherever you go. It’s, it’s love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness, and faithfulness, and gentleness and self control. And that’s how you walk. And so like, you know, and you can do that in your relationships with your family, all day, every day. And I hope I don’t make it sound too simplistic, because I know, everybody’s, you know, that’s having trouble at work is thinking like, but I don’t know how to deal with this difficult co worker. Yeah, go first, you know, you can just decide going into it, that you’re going to love them no matter what. And aside going into it, that you’re going to respond rather than react, you are going to make sure that what ever interaction you have that person that, you know, the fruits of the Spirit are coming out of you. And, and not, you know, the anger and the anxiety and stuff like that. And, and, and truly, you know, just being mindful of that, just like truly being mindful of that, that that life isn’t happening to you that these circumstances aren’t happening to you know, you are carrying hope into the world and you are actively pushing out these fruits of the Spirit that, you know, God’s in control of that and you’re in control of that, you know, you were empowered. You are not a victim. Yeah, and and I know that can be tough to be aware of in the circumstance, but it’s certainly how what gives me peace as I walk into work on a daily basis.

Paige C. Clark 54:50
I love it. That was a great way to kind of finish up with all of this John. One question I always like to ask everyone at the end of my show is what is one faith building practice, that our listeners can go out into the world and do to help them grow their spiritual life.

John Liddle 55:07
Oh, I love this. The best way to grow your spiritual life is through community. It just, it just is. And yeah, I mean a prayer and yeah, absolutely pray and Bible reading is, is wonderful. And actually, you know, just go into a church service, that’s great listening to praise and worship music. Absolutely. You know, tithing or giving, however you feel led, that is absolutely a faith building exercise as well. But if you want to actually, you know, grow exponentially. It’s all about community. It’s all about finding a group of people. And thankfully, where we are, right now, in the world, we can do that in person again, hallelujah, praise the Lord. Yeah, you know, and, but it’s finding that community, that group of people that challenge you, and you decide that vulnerability is your superpower, and you let them see you. You let them see you who for who you really are, and you find those people that aren’t going to judge you, you find those people that are going to benefit from you sharing that you have this struggle, because maybe they have it too. Yeah, you know, a group of like minded people, normally, it’s guys with guys and girls with girls, we just tend to go through similar struggles, it just tends to work out a little bit better. So I do want to encourage that. And, and just being honest, and I can’t tell you how many times in our circle, we’ve had people say, Man, I’m struggling with this kind of addiction, and it could be substance or you know, what we’re looking at, or, you know, whatever. And just getting that out there in the air. getting that out there and into the light. That is what helps it, you know, take you to a different spot with God. Because then that person can pray for you, they can hold you accountable, they can look at you without judgment and say, John, I have been there, I totally get it. And you may not feel like you’re worthy right now, but you’re worthy. Here are some verses that say you are. Here’s a remember, I know you know this, John, but remember, you know, Jesus died for this, you know, and you don’t have to be bound by this anymore. You can, you can give this over to God over and over again, no matter how many times it takes and you can have victory and you can have freedom, even when it doesn’t feel like you can And I will walk with you on that. I’ll text you about it and ask you about it. Maybe you’re having trouble, you know, not exploiting it your kids or you know, yelling, you know, having arguments with your wife, maybe your marriage is falling apart. Do not suffer in silence. Yeah. There is so much strength in a community of people that will lift you up that will pray for you that will, again hold you accountable. And that will love you for who you are right now. Not for who you’re pretending to be. And so there is life changing community. And I know I if I was gonna say something about this western culture right now is we are becoming more isolated. That is statistical. Yeah, that is, you know, that is not me editorializing. That is happening. Yeah. You know,

Paige C. Clark 58:53
across all nations after the past three years. Oh,

John Liddle 58:56
absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, isolation, it creates so many problems, addiction, mental health problems, things like that, you know, I was telling somebody the other day, when I only have myself to talk with, you know, there’s nobody to if I if I get in a bad way, if I’m not in a good mental space. There’s nobody to counteract that and tell me, you know, and remind me of who I really am. So, community is the hack. Yep, it is absolutely the hack, and I love it, commit to it. And make it a priority. Just kind of like circling back to what we were talking about earlier. Don’t miss it for anything. Don’t be like, Oh, I’ve got to work around today. No, don’t miss it for anything. Get there. And I’m talking about a group, a small group of people. Okay. Yeah. I love that. You go to church on Sunday. That is awesome.

Paige C. Clark 59:56
I’ve done that. Someone who knows your name and Yeah, exactly. And

John Liddle 1:00:00
Exactly, yeah. And so that’s, that’s the hack is community love it.

Paige C. Clark 1:00:04
I love it. Thank you so much, John. Now where can people find you connect with you listen to your podcast where we’ll link to everything in the show notes, but tell them here as well.

John Liddle 1:00:14
I appreciate that a lot of places to find me. But let’s talk about the podcast. It’s where you’re going.org, where you’re going.org. And you can find us on all the social media sites as well. But it’s just a podcast, about the fact that with God, where you’re headed is so much better than where you’ve been, or even where you are right now. Yeah, where you’re going and who you’re becoming. There’s a lot of hope for that. And so we talked to a lot of people that have have been through the wringer. We’ve all been through stuff, right. Yeah. And it does not necessarily that our guests have it all together. But they are willing to say no, here’s where we’re, you know, I haven’t had it all together. And here’s what you can learn from it. And so that is the heart behind the podcast, the whole behind the podcast, and I just, I want people to have hope. And so where you’re going.org is the website and you know, wherever we are, we are everywhere podcasts are sold, YouTube and iTunes and Spotify is the podcast.

Paige C. Clark 1:01:19
Thank you so much, John. Now, can I ask you a favor? Usually I close out this show by telling everyone thank you for listening. We’ll catch you next week. Can you do it but in your announcer voice?

John Liddle 1:01:30
Okay, fantastic. I can do it. Yeah. All right. Are we ready to go?

Paige C. Clark 1:01:35
Yeah, let’s send this out.

John Liddle 1:01:37
Fantastic in 321. Thanks so much for listening to the podcast this week. We can’t wait to have you back next week. Make sure you rate and review and subscribe to pages podcast nine to five. Can’t wait to have you back with us next week for the latest edition. We’ll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Paige C. Clark 00:41
Hello, hello everyone. I’m here with self titled Johnny the farmer, or also known on his zoom name as Johnny paradise. Johnny, how are you doing today?

Johnny the Farmer 00:54
I’m swell. How’s it go? Rollin?

Paige C. Clark 00:56
How’s it growing? It’s going good. I mean, that’s not true. My My garden is like very struggling right now because it got burned this summer, everything is burned to a crisp. So I wish it was growing better than it was part of the country is that I’m in Arizona, so it is hot and sunny and like my poor tomatoes. They were doing so good. And I have like 10 tomatoes that were just like, almost ready for picking but like not quite. And then we hit a heatwave. And then they all burn to a crisp. And I was so sad because I don’t get these beautiful tomatoes.

Johnny the Farmer 01:35
Oh my gosh, yeah, you guys just finally had a monsoon. And people are real happy about finally, it’s been a long time coming, hasn’t it? Yes,

Paige C. Clark 01:43
I’ve been hearing that people are calling it the non

Johnny the Farmer 01:46
soon. Thing monsoon it’s not that great

Paige C. Clark 01:50
nonsuit season. So tell us a little bit about you and your gardening and all that good stuff. Well,

Johnny the Farmer 01:58
yeah, so for a long time I was doing software and I kind of started getting a little burnt out on that wanted to do something that was more aligned with my values are something I could feel that was really purposeful and had a lot of meaning at the end of the day. And so, you know, I got into the idea, you know, that healthcare is so important. And so I went and I was studying for my EMT certification, that’s a great place to start, because you can help out the paramedics and get on your way to really helping people in need when they need it. And, you know, gosh, not too not too far into that I saw, you know, a lot of the, you know, the bureaucracy of the system. And, you know, one thing a lot of that they do a lot is they really, ah, you know, it’s people who are, you know, have these health conditions, and it’s just too late to help them and, you know, realize that, you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So, you know, to really help people before they get to this point of having, you know, heart disease is that epidemic levels in our country now, and to help people before it gets that far is something that’s, you know, that’s how we can really make more impact. So coming around to the idea that, you know, safe food, organic food, this is how I got there. And, you know, it’s doing it a little bit, but really getting to see it all come together and, and a couple of different farms and seeing how beautiful it can be not just that, you know, this really provides everything you need to be maximally alive and unhealthy. But that it’s a beautiful way of life to and as a Christian, you know, I think this is what God intended, you know, the first page of the Bible, it says, God put man in the garden to attend and keep it. And I think that divine design, I think that, you know, it’s the hubris of man to think that we can create something better, right? You look at what heaven will be, like, you know, there’s going to be a river again, and trees will be for the healing of the nations. So, you know, we’re going to be back in the garden. And, and, yeah, so to be good shepherds now, and to sow the seed, and, you know, we can we can restore creation, you know, we can feed the 5000 we can be part of that healing that the ministry that the Lord was a part of. And, you know, a lot of Christians may give me pushback on that and say, Well, you know, it’s just what you really got to focus on in salvation, spreading the word, and I agree, that’s primary, but the Lord it was also about the healing and it also says, By His stripes, we are healed. Yeah. So the Lord really cares about our health. No, you think about him a temple, he put the cords together and he drove out the merchants. Right? And it said, he said, zeal for my father’s house consumed me. And we are here that temple, you know, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and He cares about our health and he wants to bring us to, you know, all we can be so

Paige C. Clark 05:03
yeah, I love it, we are gonna be besties after this study because I’m like chomping at the bit here like, yeah, it’s like in my mind because like, you say, like getting into healthcare and I hear hear it put this way, a lot of it’s not health care, it’s sick care, because like our quote unquote health care system, it’s not helping people get healthy, it’s helping the sick. And it’s not again, what you said it’s not about prevent prevention right now it’s about, you know, kind of coping with the treatment. And so, there’s, there’s a book somewhere back here on the bookshelf, and it’s what the body knows about God, and you hit the nail on the head, when it’s like, I feel like Christianity has a tendency to dismiss the physical things, when really, we ignore the fact that God gave us the physical, as, like, as the home for it for the Holy Spirit. And like, we’re the ability for us to live out our lives in this home. And so I feel like that disconnection happens a lot. And that’s fascinating to hear, you know, kind of your journey and figuring that out.

Johnny the Farmer 06:18
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I’m reminded of James James chapter three says, you know, talking about faith and works, and it says, you know, if a family is hungry and cold, and they come to your door, and they’re, you know, asking for help, and you just tell them, you know, God bless you go on your way, you know, what good is that? So to provide for the needs of the physical, you know, that’s, that’s important. And that’s encouraged. And we see, you know, the Lord said, 5000, and he talked about when you throw banquets, and we look at like the prodigal son, we see that, you know, heaven, you know, redemption, this restoration, the metaphor for that is a wedding feast. So you know, to come together and to share and that and that’s a beautiful thing to be a part of. And yet, like from the beginning, it’s 10 the garden and keep it we can make the whole world beautiful again, it’s such a it’s life affirming, it really is.

Paige C. Clark 07:11
Yeah, and I’m gonna

Johnny the Farmer 07:14
keep going. No, no, no,

Paige C. Clark 07:16
I was just gonna say I’ve been noodling on that lately of like, taking care of the, like, God taken care of the real, like physical needs, because if you look at Jesus and His ministry, and what he did, and like the big miracles that He did, it took care of everything in a really physical way of, you know, feeding the 5000 and healing the blind, and, you know, you know, curing disease and everything that goes along with it. Those are all in really physical ways that God was able to, you know, minister to people, and then going back to like the garden. Funny that you said that because I have this like, Aha Moment recently. And I’ve been like, just kind of chewing on it. I’m not like I have, this is the first time I’d ever discussing it kind of publicly. But it was that idea of God created Eden and Eden is, you know, that was his creation. And that is what he saw as perfect. And so, you know, when we think about kind of end times, and, you know, the new world and all of that. I think it’s gonna be a lot like Eden, because that was God’s original design, and then everything’s going to be made perfect when Jesus comes again. So that’s kind of my thought, and you hit the nail right on the head when you said that.

Johnny the Farmer 08:41
Yeah, you know, and I think, you know, maybe like the turning point of history, you know, the cross, and before that in the Garden of Gethsemane, you know, the Lord’s there in a very special time. And yeah, again, they’re in a garden, kind of working through, you know, the process of, you know, the redemption of everyone. You know, and then you go to that Sunday morning, coming up, you know, Resurrection Sunday, Mary finds the Lord in the garden, and she doesn’t recognize them. And this is a good friend of the Lord. She says, I’m supposing to him, him to be the gardener. Right? He says, Have you seen my Lord? And so I think about this and I imagine maybe the Lord’s got his back to her. Maybe he’s got his arms up. And the that same resurrection power that was in him is kind of flow into the garden, and Mary had maybe had never seen the garden so beautiful. And she sees the Lord and she says, supposing him to be the gardener. Have you seen my Lord? So I think this is just another encouragement to us that we should be mistaken for the gardener at times. And you know, this is a beautiful way to

Paige C. Clark 09:58
and in your case, you actually Are are the garden? You are the farmer?

Johnny the Farmer 10:02
Yeah, you know, and it’s um, and not just for like healthy food, but you know, it ticks all the boxes for what a great lifestyle, you know, a little exercise and fresh air, a lifestyle so that we can be maximally alive and healthy and strong. Yeah, it is. It’s all with this delicious, nutritious beauty. You know, getting to be around our favorite plants and animals and seeing the butterflies and the hummingbirds come around. What a, what a beautiful, the manifold wisdom of the Lord, you know, too. I often think about the cycles of, you know, like composting, we take our bananas, and we feed them to the chickens, and we take our chicken manure, and we feed it back to the banana tree. What an incredible cycle, what an incredible symbiosis between the plants and animals that, you know, we’ve actually lost these days with conventional agriculture with the chemical agriculture, you know, instead of using that manure, they’re using, you know, petroleum chemicals, and it’s wild, we’re really seeing the health deficits that come from that. Yeah. But you get back to like, the manifold wisdom of God to create things in this perfect symbiosis. You know, also the breath, you know, the photosynthesis, you know, at the end of the day, the plant is taking in carbon dioxide, and it’s exhaling oxygen, and we’re doing the exact inverse of that. Yeah, inhaling oxygen and exhaling carbon dioxide. And these are both these processes are so critical for the plants and the animals to live. And somehow it all works even it’s like, it’s like, that’s what it is. So yeah.

Paige C. Clark 11:46
And I was, I was actually thinking the other day, because I’m, I’m sprouting myself right now for the next season. And I haven’t seen the other day, it was just like, such a nerdy moment of me where I’m like, yes, I’ve always known this, but like, the impact of what it was really hit me in the moment, and I was like, God is so cool, because he made all of these things to regenerate. Like, you have like, right now, my butternut squash. seedlings are just like, thriving, they’re on cloud nine, they’re happy. And I was like, how cool is it that like, I have these one plant and it’s going to produce, I mean, hopefully, it’ll produce like four or five. You know, butternut squash is over the season. But then I cut it open and I have a plethora of seeds that I just get to go and reuse for the next season. And like I think that we ignore that a lot of the time that I’m like, God created this and like what you were saying with them with a compost feeding the chickens and then the chickens, you know, feeding them banana trees, and it’s just like this perfect cycle. I think there’s a lot of just all that happens when we look at God’s creation and even with chickens to chickens, and then they create eggs and then you can cook the eggs or if you let the chickens grow, they’ll grow up to be more chickens and then those chickens will lay eggs and it’s just like this really beautiful cycle that God has already put in place for renewal and like just constantly constant recycling, which is really beautiful to see.

Johnny the Farmer 13:27
Absolutely, it’s incredible. I love it butternut squash Wow, I love some good butternut squash soup It’s like a nice warm hug it’s like a good curry in the mail.

Paige C. Clark 13:38
Yeah, I make a really good I do butternut squash sweet potato is it pumpkin no butternut squash sweet potato and I make like a coconut curry bass and I just make it this like really thick soup is so good. It’s my absolute favorite thing to do so I mean hopefully fingers crossed but my little tomato plants I’m so heartbroken I think they’re not dead yet but they my my latest crop suffered

Johnny the Farmer 14:07
hope you know what I might do is cut them back and yeah maybe I don’t know if you create some shade but to help you know ensure they stay hydrated enough I’m sure you have some mulch but maybe the more much the better. And you know a lot of trees when you plant them you want to plant them like a little higher than the soil so they don’t get suffocated by you know there’s their stems actually needed to breed the tomatoes aren’t like that you can actually take the leaves off and plant them super deep. So this could be something that you know there’s plenty of time left in the season there so

Paige C. Clark 14:40
yeah, so Okay, so let’s get back to what we came here to do because I could nerd out all day about about plants and my like little you know, urban backyard situation I have going on. But what really what What is it that you do kind of on a day to day basis? And like, how does your faith inform that?

Johnny the Farmer 15:07
That’s great. So I help out with garden design in installs. And then I help out with kind of some activism online helping spread the word. So, yeah, I think my faith informs that by Yeah, the importance of like, waiting on the Lord for that next step can be so crucial, you know, we were talking about the Garden of Gethsemane, you know, he invited the inner circle, Peter, James, and John to wait with them. And I think this is such a special invitation that is extended to us. You know, throughout the scriptures, you know, it says, Be still and know that I am God. And it says, you know, those who wait on the Lord will rise up on wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not faint. So, there’s a lot of places again, in the, in the prophets that says that, you know, in quietness and rest was your salvation, but you would have none of none of it. Instead, you you split off on horses. And this is such a great metaphor for how the flesh in us, you know, just wants to go and do what seems right to us. And when the disciples those, those, that inner circle is waiting with the Lord, you know, they, they can’t do it, they keep falling asleep, and the Lord keeps waking them up and fan, hey, can you just wait with me for one hour? And, you know, so they, they were walking with the Lord for three years, and this was like the best of the best, and they were falling asleep. So that’s an encouragement to us that you know, the Lord is patient. And that, you know, this doesn’t come easy for for anyone. You know, I see the fruit of finding that time to wait on them, you know, the disciples asked the Lord, how do we pray, and he says, When you pray, go in your inner closet and shut the door, and your Father who sees you in secret will reward you. And what’s interesting about that, to me is it’s such a quid pro quo there. It’s like, if you do this, your father will reward you. And, you know, there’s not a lot of times in Scripture, you see something so clearly outlined like that, right? But yeah, and then it’s really been done on me, you know, we all just kind of make our mistakes. And to me, I really think that the root of that is that yeah, we’re not finding that time to abide in the Lord. And really to, you know, when he went into the wilderness to pray after he was baptized, he was out there for 40 days fasting. And, you know, the adversary came to him and was tempting him. And he says, You know, I know you’re hungry. Why don’t you turn that stone into a loaf of bread. And the Lord says, Man shall not live on bread alone, but every word from the mouth of God. And this implies that just eating that bread in that moment, would have distracted him from hearing what the Father had for him. And you know, that’s such an innocuous thing, right? To have some bread when you’re hungry. Yeah. But this kind of, you know, emphasizes this fact of finding this time to really hear from Father and to really kind of surrender. You know, Paul says that the flesh and the spirit are at odds with one another. So we have to be wary not to. Yeah, just want to go our own way. And to really, you know, hear your father and hear that way. You know, there’s a path lined up for us. You know, Jesus warns us that narrow is a path that leads to life but broad is a way that leads to destruction. So, Amen. Lord, help us find that time. Yeah. I like to remember land on a Thursday because the Garden of Gethsemane that was on a Thursday night. And so you know, the Lord is asking those disciples, you know, wait with me and pray for me for one hour. So, Lord, help us. Remember to do that. And, again, maybe especially on a Thursday, to find that time and to, to be blessed in that way. I think that that is a lot of where we can find a lot of blessing there. And yeah, then the Lord can just work on us and show us things. You know, we all there’s, gosh, Paul said that he finds this principle at play that whatever he does, the enemies are to tempt him. So you know, it’s walking up to the Lord. It might be you know, the hardest thing in the world. He says, deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Me. So there’s to continually deny ourselves, that’s, that’s a superhuman effort. And we need to be doing that by the Spirit. We can’t do that in our own flesh. And we live in an age of distraction, where there’s just all of this nonsense of the materialism. And then temptations to take us away from, you know, really, you know, hearing what father has for us. So to find that time and to really listen, you know, Lord, Lord help us. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. So I find it helpful to really imagine the Lord doing it. And just try to be a witness, just try to see the Lord doing it in my shoes. You know, it says that he was tempted just like us in all ways, but he was perfect. He did not sin. So we can imagine him and every temptation that we face, and we can imagine how he would handle it. And to me, that’s the secret sauce of the faith is that we’re going to find whatever we were missing, whether it’s courage or self control, the empathy, the love, the forgiveness, the grace, the patience, if we keep our eyes fixed on the Lord, you know, we’re going to be transformed into His likeness. You know, it’s, it’s said that, you know, whoever your five best friends are, that’s pretty much who you are, you know, is Jesus like, in our top five

Paige C. Clark 21:07
best friends? Yeah,

Johnny the Farmer 21:08
I hope he’s number one. Right, Lord

Paige C. Clark 21:09
help us. Yeah. Johnny farmer slash preacher, because that was amazing. I absolutely agree with all of that. And I think to like, God, there’s so many parallels in scripture of the harvest and God using nature. And I mean, most people were, you know, I was gonna say, agrarian, that’s the word I was looking for, you know, they’re working the fields that was really kind of commonplace. And so I feel like, you know, now with being able to run down to my grocery store and get the food that is there a, we’ve kind of lost touch with with that. Kind of parallel. But with you, you’re doing this every day, day in and day out. And I can see that, like, God really meets you and like, reinforces the messages that he is telling in Scripture in what you do every day.

Johnny the Farmer 22:09
Yeah, it’s a great opportunity in the garden to reconnect for sure. Yeah, with the natural world, I think. Yeah, so many of the parables right there based on these natural things of, you know, the parable of the sower, or the parable of the the lead and the tears, and shepherd and leaving the sheep finding the lost sheep. And, you know, we’re talking about the seed earlier with the butternut squash. I love that, you know, because that shows the abundance the blessing of God, right? 3464?

Paige C. Clark 22:38
Yeah. Oh, I’ve never, you just added a whole other layer to that, like, lightbulb moment I had. That’s so true. So true. Oh my gosh, that’s so cool. I’m gonna have, I’m not going to be journaling after this Johnny word, I’m just going to be like, knee deep in it. Now, one question I do have, and I want to know if it’s true for you. Because a lot of what you see in Scripture is when Jesus meets with the women, and God meets with women in Scripture, usually, they’re being met, and kind of like what they do in everyday life in their everyday life, right? Like, Mary and Martha, they’re in their home cooking, and cleaning, and all that good stuff. And then Jesus comes into their home, you know, the woman at the well, Jesus is at the well and meeting the woman in her everyday life, whereas, and this is kind of generally on a trend, but with the men, God always cause cause them to go out and retreat to meet with God, do you find that to be true with your spiritual life and your spiritual practice? Whereas like, you’re not necessarily meeting God in the Garden, your garden, but you you know, you want to go out and retreat with God to have that time with him?

Johnny the Farmer 23:59
That’s interesting question. Yeah, you know, I’ve had my season where I was traveling a lot. And, yeah, it’s interesting to think, you know, remember how, you know, a lot of the Lord’s people would would travel talks about, you know, being the inner Sojourner and blessing the sojourner. And talks about you think about Abraham, you know, they were, they were living in tents, right. So they were going around with their animals. And yeah, it was. There’s something special about about that road, I think, you know, it Life is full of these kinds of contrasts, right, like, trade offs, where, you know, going off on an adventure like that, you know, it’s so cool in so many ways, but then to stay home with a family. You know, that’s just as beautiful in other ways. Oh, yeah. So to have have that dichotomy is interesting. And seeing that interplay, I do I do often try to make part of my routine is to take a walk in the evening, you know, in, in Genesis in Adam, in Eden, it says, Adam walked with God in the cooler today, and to go and catch a sunset, and just to have that time to wind down before it gets dark and be outside and that I do find that that’s a good time to reconnect and consider the things Lord and try to tune in to that. And yeah, just finding that quietness, yeah, I really do find that in going on a walk in that way. I was something about having a dog growing up, that really made me appreciate, you know how much I like to go for a walk, or you can go go for a walk with your dog and get back inside. And then, you know, 10 minutes later, your dogs looking at you like, why don’t we go? Why are we still outside walking? Yeah, so I have grown to appreciate that. And, yeah, but I also am just finding that time in the closet as well. I think that that is a place where, you know, there’s something special about really tuning in, you know, for me, my mind wanders, and I think that that’s kind of the it’s kind of the whole point of, you know, mindful meditation, and is that to kind of get control of our mind. And, you know, to take every thought captive to the Lord and to keep coming back to, you know, what His will is for us and to keep listening to that, rather than, you know, whatever seems right to us. I find it helpful in the, in that prayer closet to kind of be, you know, prostrate, you know, it says that the Lord kind of fell to his knees and he was praying, and you see this kind of throughout Scripture is that this posture of humility, helps me kind of come back to, you know, I’ve read somewhere, how does the quote go? It says that the posture of the body, it’s like, the, it’s like a posture of the soul. So to kind of be prostrating, in that place, kind of, like, kind of, like Child’s Pose for yoga. Yeah. You know, I like that, as far as really just bringing me back to what I’m doing. Because, man, if you try, you know, maybe I have add more than most, but for me, I try to focus on something and, you know, it’s easy for the mind to wander at times, especially if it can be you know, as abstract as prayer waiting on the Lord can consume some time. So

Paige C. Clark 27:36
yeah, yeah, for sure. And it’s funny that you say that, and I’m gonna do something that I like, was not planning on doing I’m gonna move my camera and show you because what I’m working on fits perfectly into this conversation. So forgive my office for those who are watching this live. But I am cleaning out that closet right now to become my prayer closet. Like as we speak. I started this yesterday. But yeah, I’m cleaning out that closet right there because I don’t know what I was doing. I was like getting something out of it. My husband walks over and he goes, so good size closet, you should make your prayer closet. And I was like, yes, absolutely. So you know, it’s it’s happening. It’s Look at that. I think that is affirmation and gods and Gods Inklings towards me in my life. Now, Lord, help us Yes. Right. Like is like you can see all my stuff is completely removed from that closet right now, which is what I was, I did it yesterday. So I need to vacuum it’s done. But we’re gonna get there. But yeah, it’s kind of amazing. And it’s funny because it takes me back to my time in college, there was one season where I had ended up in a dorm room by myself, which like, is very unheard of for college. Like, no one is really in like a dorm room by themselves. Like, that doesn’t happen, but like just how the circumstances shook out. I was in this room by myself for a good chunk, and then ended up coming like that last half of the semester. I had a friend who is the sounds, you know, way sketchier than it actually was. But she was pregnant. And so she like came and like lived in the dorm room as well, but she was also attending college and she was also married. It’s a whole thing. But for this time, I had like, my own room and I could like make this space, whatever I wanted. And so I took the like bunk and it was on its rafters, and I put it on its tallest rafter and then underneath it was nothing because no one needed that bed. And so I put like, a curtain up and I put like lights and like a map and all this other stuff. And like I had my prayer list up there. And it was like my own space and I was like one day I’m gonna have this in my home and guess what, that’s what’s that’s exactly what is happening

Johnny the Farmer 29:59
to me. is a Today’s a day. That’s awesome. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 30:03
yeah, crazy. I mean, like more things like that have happened on this podcast. And I’m like, you know, I don’t know if this pot, like I hope this podcast reaches people. But what I’m finding is God is just like using it to preach to me and my soul and all of this. So I don’t know if you caught it. And this is actually the first time I think I’m bringing it up on the podcast, but I had recorded a podcast with Dr. Tony, he’s a chiropractor. This was like back in March or April. And we were talking and the Scripture had come to me that morning, and then it came to me again during the conversation was, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for you are with me. And that just like kept coming up. And I was like, God, like, what are you doing? Like, because whenever things like that happen, I’m like, It’s definitely like a foreshadowing of God, like happening. And I’m like, What’s going on here? Now, a couple of weeks later, my husband gets a cancer diagnosis. Oh, my God, and then, like, he’s fine. Now all good and dandy. But it was like, that was the last episode I had recorded. Before I took like a two month stint off while he was going through surgery and everything. But now I’m like, seeing that everywhere with his podcast. So I’m just like, you know, it’s just God talking to me through all this. So there’s my there’s my prayer closet to say the least.

Johnny the Farmer 31:31
Oh, my gosh, wow. though. Good. Yeah, this

Paige C. Clark 31:36
Yeah. Crazy. So I kind of just like, you know, let’s, let’s throw out the entire structure for this. Because I think that the conversation about gardening and food and its connection to God, is it’s too good to pass up with this conversation. And now that I have you here, I’m not gonna let you go. So in what way is hat? Like, what are the principles? Maybe that have? You’ve learned about God? First in the garden, and first on the farm? You know, not necessarily like, we read it in Scripture. So it applies to the farm, but like things that you have interacted with on the farm, then you’re like, Oh, this is like, definitely a Jesus God thing going on?

Johnny the Farmer 32:23
That’s good. You know, we talk about the butternut squash and all the seeds that come from that, thinking about how the abundance like this is like the Kingdom economy, you know, is this abundance mentality that, you know, God is gonna bless us? To me? You know, it seems like most of the time a disciple came to Jesus and asked him a question. He responded saying, Oh, you have little faith. You know, like, Lord, help us have the faith that, you know, we have a perfect father who wants to provide for us, you know, he provides for the birds and provides for the flowers, he loves us much more than these. So what a wow, we can find rest in that we can find comfort in that we can find strength in that. And that can help us to find, you know, rest, which we need for restoration and rejuvenation. So, Amen. Lord, help us trusting you with all things and not to find ourselves so worried. Yeah, that you see this abundance in the garden. In so many ways of things that we can from the seeds to you know, I love when you go to harvest a plant and you cut it back and it needs pruning anyways. So now, a lot of times, you know, we don’t harvest as much as we have. And then we’re like, well, we need to print this plant. So we’ll print it back. And then wow, now look at all these seeds, all these leaves. And then, you know, I liked this. This one tropical kind of they call it like a spinach. It’s called the took, but it actually tastes super sweet. It’s like a sweet pea. Okay, and so this one, I love this. It’s a perennial, right, you can have huge garden beds of it, you have like a little forest of it. And when you go in, you cut it and print it back. And now you have all these leaves to have and I’m like wow, I just have not been eating enough of this and put it in the fridge or freeze it and then those those cuttings I needed to prune for the plant anyways. But now I can take those and I like to just take them cut all the leaves off, put them in a wet bag in the shade somewhere, keep them wet for a couple weeks, and now they can be rooting and that can be you know, dozens more little plants that I have to share or spread around the garden. So just this idea that wow, just as we harvest these things, like more and more abundance is created. And yeah, what a beautiful way that we can make little oases of of abundance of resilience, legacies of love and then from them, we can spread that around our communities and talk about putting your light on a lamp stand. You know what a great Way to be a be a model of sustainability of, of love, you know? And yeah, I think we can make these durable systems, you know, our monoculture that’s so much focused on just annuals, you know, we can have orchards and, and, you know, animals integrated in a way that are, you know, kind of as hands off as possible,

Paige C. Clark 35:24
right, you know,

Johnny the Farmer 35:25
I, we’re talking about chickens. I love chickens, I recommend everybody consider getting chickens because you can keep them in the tropics, you can keep them in Alaska. Yeah, they actually do better in the cold. And, yeah, they take take care of your kitchen scraps. And that can be like the primary thing they’re eating, and then returning that into, you know, eggs and manure, and, you know, you don’t need a rooster to have to get eggs, right, you can just have some hens are noisy. And, yeah, I recommend people to consider like the deep litter method. So just taking all of the, it’s recommended to take like 12 inches of woodchips and have that be the base layer that the chickens are in, and, and that all that carbon is going to soak up all that nature vision. So there won’t be any smell. It’s like a carbon filter. Right? Yeah. And you think about how this kind of relates to the design of God, you know, you go to a forest, and you see all this litter on the ground. And this is like, you know, the forest might not get any rain for six months, but it’s okay. Because that that mulch is is keeping the hydration. If it does get a big rain event, you know, it can soak it up, right.

Paige C. Clark 36:40
And it Campbell of the agriculture world.

Johnny the Farmer 36:43
Exactly. It’s keeping the soil. Cool, right? Yeah. Or if it gets like super cold, it’s actually keeping the soil warm. And so it’s, and then as it breaks down, it itself is like a compost tea that’s adding fertility to the soil. And so when we, when we use mulch, or it can be other kind of, you know, organic material and a chicken like this, we only need to go in, clean out that chicken coop, like once a year, and, and it will remain kind of nice and tidy. Yeah, it is. So

Paige C. Clark 37:18
I love the concept to a pruning. I think that’s one thing that I’ve really, that’s, it’s hard for me to do, because it doesn’t make sense on a human level is like, I’m cutting back for more, like I’m taking away. So that so there may be more there. And I think I heard this, you know, this whole talk around pruning and and even the Scripture about pruning the fruit and everything is like how God prunes us in our life. Right? Like God says, you know, like, our Scripture says, you put us like, refine us, you know, put us through the fire. And there’s, you know, the scripture of like, let’s God like, prune who we are, and the way the way I heard it put was like, pruning, like probably doesn’t feel good. You are like cutting a piece of the plant off like that, like you are like removing an arm, right? Like that doesn’t feel good. But into the plant it probably quote unquote, like hurts, but it is necessary in order for that plant to produce fruit. And so when God comes into our lives, and kind of prunes everything out, like it might hurt, it might suck. But at the end of the day it is so that we can be more productive of fruit in our life.

Johnny the Farmer 38:44
Absolutely, yeah. Well said, yes, the Scripture says yeah, my Father is the vinedresser I am the vine, and you know, you are the branches. And right so we receive our life from being rooted in the Lord abiding in him. And then it says that, you know, he, he prunes those he loves so, you know, we’re His children and he’s a perfect father and right so sometimes, you know, there’s things in our lives or there’s maturity. I love this idea of, of James V. I love the way James starts out says, it addresses, you know, the audience and then it says, Rejoice when you encounter all sorts of various trials for you know, and I’m paraphrasing, but, you know, it’s working your maturity in the Christ’s likeness. And, you know, this is so beautiful. I love the idea that we have a perfect father and all the challenges in our life, you know, maybe they’re perfect for us too. They’re just what we need to grow and to just mature to, to find that patience, find that reliance in the father find that love. Find that holiness, you know, he talked about pruning and it really makes me think of yeah began being devoted To the Lord, you know how, like I said, we’re like in the age of distractions, and there’s just so much to take our time. And to we can find wins. You know, to so many What do you watch? Go watch a video about anything on the phone in your pocket. It’s like, I believe what you find. And so, yeah, to get back to devotion to the Father, what does he have for us? You know, what are the what are the good works that we can walk in? You know, and often I find for myself, just that, wow, if the Lord would find themselves in my shoes right now, he would say, I haven’t been waiting on the father enough. I haven’t been you know, listening. I am too distracted, I need to focus in so you know, I think often this is where we find ourselves and to, to make that time it’s Yeah, I was. I like to play chess on my phone in my downtime, and then I’m just kind of like, convicted the other day is like, well, you have all these other things that you could be dealing with, you have like a list that’s like, endless of cool things that you’re excited to do. You can be like, catching up with those. And you know, how often am I put in like, good, good moments? Or like, you know, yeah, where I can be taken care of awesome things and is getting, getting into something else. So yeah, what help us be holy, it says, Be holy, even as your Father in heaven. It’s holy. Wow. We’re supposed to be devoted. And yeah, I can do amazing things through us. But if we’re not if we’re not present for him, if we’re not vessels that he can use, you know, yeah, we need pruning them. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 41:43
One thing that I heard, I was recently at a conference, and it was for, for people who are becoming writers and everything. And we’re talking about like, the battle internal battle of social media. And the speaker who is giving this talk, she goes, social media doesn’t take up a lot of your time. Scrolling on social media takes up a lot of your time. And it’s this mind shift of like, no, like, actually, you know, posting on social media. That’s not That’s not your your weakness here. Your weakness is actually like the distraction that comes from it of just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. So that really resonated with me, I was like, yep, that that too. And so whenever I do that, also, if anyone has an iPhone, you know, you can set time limits on apps just thrown it out there. You can set time limits on apps, which kicks you out once you hit your time limit. So there’s your you know, fun fact of the day, you can that’s that’s

Johnny the Farmer 42:40
a great point about social media, right? Is that Yeah, doing doing the fruitful things from it? Yeah, they don’t take a ton of time, but right scrolling, and they’re, you’re just consuming, you’re consuming that content. And it’s like, you know, if we’re filled with the Spirit, you know, we have things to share. We don’t we don’t need to, you know, just be consuming content like that and be consuming

Paige C. Clark 43:01
Jesus. Okay, I want you to talk about this idea, because I heard this and I like, had to sit on it for a while. Because also, there’s like, so many spiritual parallels to this, but I was listening to, I don’t know, it might have been like a video on like, agriculture and gardening and everything like that. And, and it was saying, it was talking about like, watering the plants, like how a lot of the times most people over water their plants, because they want to have some sense of control in the growing process. And like, the rest of it is really out of their hands. Because like, right, that the sunlight, it’s in the sunlight has the soil, it’s already the root, like the growing process is really out of your hands, all you have to do is kind of, I mean, to put it very simply, I know it’s not just the CEC but you just have to water it. And so a lot of people will end up over watering their plants because they want to do something in the process. They can’t be patient and idly stand by. Okay, what do you have to say about that? Because I thought that concept was so interesting.

Johnny the Farmer 44:17
Yeah, that’s like a great metaphor for for things in our lives. Isn’t that where Yeah, it’s like goes back reminds me of like, you know, in repentance and unrest is our salvation but we want to speed up on horses if we just wait on the Lord, you know, to reveal what we have to do. You think you’re talking about posting on social media? Like how much more powerful will our words be? If we wait on the father to give us direction about what to post rather than trying to craft it in our own like, you know, cleverness? Yeah. So yeah, it’s, it’s a great point. Yeah. And, and when watering the plants, it’s like, yeah, some plants some plants will like you can you could drown them they could live in River but yeah, it’s it’s easy to look into those things. You got these things and say, Hey, is this drought tolerant? Is this what? Yeah. I think most of the time people over water, it’s when they’re in parks. And so if I could just add, yeah, yes, it’s just lifted the part of it’s heavy. That’s because of the water. So it doesn’t need water. Or you could put your fingers in the soil and feel a couple inches deep.

Paige C. Clark 45:24
Yeah, I saw it too. Like, if the soil starts to pull away from the walls of the pot, then it needs water. And so that’s kind of like my rule of thumb is like, is this soil kind of constricting? A little bit?

Johnny the Farmer 45:37
That’s cool. I hadn’t heard that one. Oh, really? No, that’s great.

Paige C. Clark 45:41
I feel so special that I just told you

Johnny the Farmer 45:44
know, you don’t have to pick it up or, or put your hands on.

Paige C. Clark 45:48
You just look at it. Because like, if you see really dry soil, right, it’s like really compact and kind of around the center. Versus like, wet soil is like nice and relaxed. So there’s that and also, I have a hydro tower for my garden, so I don’t really need to worry about over. All right, right now, right now I’m worried about it not having water because it is so hot here that it like it evaporates. And within a day, you think it’s like here’s a 25 gallon tub. Like it’s like a big tub of water and it evaporates every day. And so every morning, I have to go up there and fill it.

Johnny the Farmer 46:30
Wow. 25 gallons. Yeah, that’s uh

Paige C. Clark 46:35
oh, it’s more than that. Now that I think of that. Yeah, it’s way more than that. Anyways, but

Johnny the Farmer 46:40
it making it happen. I love it. Yeah, Arizona. You gotta have it.

Paige C. Clark 46:44
Yeah, there’s this there’s this great Gao growing in the garden, I think is her little handle. But she’s an Arizona gardener. And it’s so great because I’m pretty sure everyone who gardens in Arizona follows her because like her garden is always just so lush and so beautiful. And she teaches people how to garden in in the low desert which is crazy.

Johnny the Farmer 47:11
Yeah, that is kind of I’ve I’ve visited and I kind of started wrap my mind around the challenge of it is yeah, I read one said, Eden Eden translates to the world watered place. So makes things a little easier there. I love the monsoon. calling it the non soon.

Paige C. Clark 47:33
The non soon. Yeah, we’ve had only like one storm so far this season. And that was like three days ago. But yeah, I’m just like waiting for the end of the season. Because then I’m like, okay, but here’s, here’s like a glimpse into my life has like way more detail than anyone ever needs to know. So we moved into this house about a year and a half ago. And right, and we knew we wanted to put in a pool because I’m a fish I love to swim. So also side note, we’re doing a natural biological pool, but just fascinating when it comes to plants, just say. So like, like a pond pool is what we’re gonna be putting in our backyard. I’m so excited. So we’re doing that, but also pools are insanely expensive. And so obviously, like we’re going to save up for a while, it’s going to take us you know, a couple of years to get that going. And so I’m like yeah, but I like don’t want my backyard to be like a pile of dirt. But I also don’t want it to be like wasted investment, because they’re gonna have to dig it all up once we put in the pool. So for this whole time, I’ve been like starting to really like build up my garden and everything like that. And so the one like when we get the tractors and the pool dug, my entire side yard is going to be just like wall the wall garden and it’s going to be magnificent. And I cannot wait for that day to get my garden like fully wet it’s going to be amazing because because in a hydro tower, you can grow anything except bushes and root like things that grow underground. Everything else so you can grow in a hydro tower which so my butterflies it’s all coming to fruition. Yeah, it’s so cool to like, I mean my I kind of let my tower and my plants seed in the tower and like kind of die out because I’m like there’s no point like trying to rescue them right now. It’s just too hot to function. But I’m also like watching my seedlings because I’m like they need food and they need like the nutrition that comes through the hydro tower, but it’s also insanely windy and sunny and I think it’s too soon to bring out the seedlings. So all in God’s timing right. That’s another lesson we can take away from this is just watching God’s timing and all of that because he will know when it’s the perfect time to do.

Johnny the Farmer 49:56
Absolutely. That’s good. I like that. Yeah, it’s um All in all in different seasons. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 50:03
Yeah. Yeah, that was also interesting. Go, no, I was just gonna say, my, my sister and brother in law, they just bought some property in North Carolina, and they’re gonna start like their own kind of, you know, farm and you know, they’re gonna have animals and grow things and all that jazz. So when they, whenever they come out and visit me, they always like Go and take like little little starters from all my plants because I grow things that they don’t grow. So like when they were out here, they got like a couple pieces of cactus that they’re going to try to grow in North Carolina, and whatnot. But my, my brother in law he is trying to do, he’s going to do a hydroponic garden, but he’s going to do it with fish nutrient, so they’re going to have a pond with fish. And you actually take that water from the fish pond, which has, you know, in essence, is just fertilized water, because has fish poop and everything in it, and fish waste, and then they use that to be the nutrients for the hydroponic garden, which I think is the coolest thing. Again, God provides in all sorts of different ways.

Johnny the Farmer 51:17
Absolutely. That’s amazing.

Paige C. Clark 51:20
Okay, what were you gonna say, because I’m enjoying this way too much.

Johnny the Farmer 51:26
You know, I just wanted to go. So we talked about the beautiful things about gardening and how it’s in scriptures, but you’re talking about seasons, and I wanted to talk about why, you know, maybe we’re in a season of the kind of era we’re in why this is maybe more important all the time. Yeah. And so when you look to look to the garden, on that first page, it says tending keep the garden, and then there’s this warning, like, don’t eat from that tree of knowledge and get enable. So from the beginning, there’s this dynamic to watch what we eat. And in the States today, I know a lot of us are there, you know, and our food system is like kind of under attack, it can be a lot better. There’s 100 chemicals that are banned in Europe that are used to grow our food. And we see, you know, that we have an epidemic of diseases compared to them. And you know, they are living now in Western Europe, about six years longer than us, were about four years ago, they were living about one year longer than us. So we lost about five years. And that’s not just five years that we lose on the end, that’s like five years, you know, that’s vitality. In the meantime, you know, being able to be all we can be. So we’re under attack. And, you know, this, this glyphosate is, I think maybe the number one thing that we can try to cut out of our foods, and this is an herbicide that’s used to the tune of three pounds per person in the States. And there’s that per year. Yeah. And there’s some, there’s some peer reviewed research that shows that it’s like 99%, correlated with a lot of, you know, serious conditions going up to full three foot platform. And we’re talking about, you know, serious things, autism, Alzheimer’s, dementia, cancer, autoimmune diseases, obesity, diabetes. So this glyphosate is a known antibiotic, and it kills the life in the soil. And when we eat it, it’s like, you know, there’s a lot of really important microbes in our digestion, to the tune of like about 15 pounds, this is actually more microbes in our digestion, like 10 to 100 times as much as we have cells in our body because they’re very small. Yeah. So these antibiotics, they can disrupt that and, and kill most of those microbes. And they are very critical for our digestion and for our immunity to diseases, helping us process vitamins and nutrients. And another thing, so the glyphosate, you know, wrecks that and then it also really affects our stomach lining. So it can create a leaky gut. And so now it would, there’s like food in our digestion, that’s not ready, but it gets into our bloodstream. So this would be, you know, let’s say we had a really good meal, but we put it in the blender, and then just like, put it directly into our blood, like, that’s not the way that we’re designed, right? This is what’s going on when we when we get that glyphosate. So yeah, a lot of people we feel like we’re gluten intolerant, really, were glyphosate intolerant, because now what they’re doing is they’re using this as a desiccant on the crop. So before, maybe you can say, well, it’s not so bad because they would use it just as an herbicide to start and maybe as the plants got going, but then, you know, maybe it would be you know, weeks and weeks before harvest that they will use it and now they’re spraying it on oats or spraying it on wheat as a desiccant to dry out these crops. And this helps them And you know,

Paige C. Clark 55:01
if it’s faster, right, it helps them

Johnny the Farmer 55:03
harvest faster, it helps them to harvest more uniformly, it helps maximize their yield, it really helps. But this stuff is a known toxin is it’s very hard to like when a legal case against a toxin like this, right, they’ve won, they’ve won time and time again, against the maker of this glyphosate. And now there’s like this huge, like class action lawsuit where the maker is happy to pay $12 billion, with a B, to all the farmers getting cancers, and wow, it’s just farmers. And that’s actually just one type of cancer. And yeah, and

Paige C. Clark 55:42
that’s just one instance.

Johnny the Farmer 55:45
It shows you Yeah, and so the stuffs in all of our food, there’s studies that show that just a tiny bit, can be like, you know, really toxic, especially for kids, you know, their kidneys are underdeveloped, compared to adults. So there, they can be more prone to the problems of this. So, yeah, I just think this, this is, this is a real issue and something to consider. And I just go back to this idea, like, what’s more important to the health of us and our loved ones? Yeah, by the Lord stripes were healed, he cares about our health, you know, we need to, and this is going to help us, you know, be all we can be so many people, now they have fibromyalgia, they have brain fog, you can’t do all they they wouldn’t be able to do, because, you know, they’re sick and tired. And so this is a great way, you know, it feels good to feel good. So the more we can lean into this, you know, there’s when when we go shopping at a grocery store, you know, there’s something called the clean 15, right, we can choose fruits and veggies that don’t need to be organic, but because they have appeal that we take off, you know, it’s safer, and they don’t need to be organic, as much. And

Paige C. Clark 56:50
that leads me to my next question about peels. But I’m going to pause there to just to add a little anecdote of a lot of the times when you hear people who have either celiac or are gluten intolerant, like severely, a lot of the times when they go to Europe and places especially like Italy, that’s like really, you know, known for their carbohydrates, right with with with all their wheat, usually those people are more able to digest and consume products with was, I was gonna say glucose, that’s not the word.

Johnny the Farmer 57:30
I’m the same way. Yeah, Europe, and I can eat the bread, I feel great. I’m in the States, and I eat the bread, I need a nap. And I maybe it takes me a day to recover. Now, the good news is, is glyphosate does have these bad effects on our body, but the half life of it is pretty short about a day. So if you, you know, really try to be mindful and cut these things out of your diet, you know, you’re gonna feel an effect and you’re going to be you know, detoxing pretty fast. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. But, um,

Paige C. Clark 57:56
can we talk about appeal?

Johnny the Farmer 57:58
I don’t know a lot about appeal. Okay, it’s scary about that stuff, though, I guess I’ll have to read that. It’s about 95%, like unknown ingredients. So like, you end up putting it on organic produce, it’s just so

Paige C. Clark 58:12
for those who are listening who don’t know what we’re talking about, there’s a product that’s, you know, tied to Bill Gates, of course, that’s called a peel a P E, E, L, I think, or it’s a P E, Al anyways. And it’s this coating that they’re putting on produce, to extend the shelf life of this produce, so that it can, you know, keep going with profits. But the issue is, is what Johnny was saying, one people don’t really know what is in it. And two, we don’t know kind of the lasting effects of of putting that stuff in our body.

Johnny the Farmer 58:55
You know, it’s crazy to think about what Big Pharma has done. So you go back to like the prescriptions from James chapter five, if anyone is sick, you know, call the elders together and put some oil on them and the prayer of faith will heal them. And so I think that that’s pointing to something special about oil and you know, as well as prayer, that the oil we can absorb that oil, our skin cells, each one of them that cell membrane is a double layer, it’s a bio lipid layer, we can you know, you put a lot of olive oil on or some good oil 20 minutes later, you’re just going to have a little healthy glow, it’s not going to be you know, quite the sheen. So again, you know,

Paige C. Clark 59:35
oil to castor oil is able to penetrate deepest into any cell layer. So, like yes, olive oil, great coconut oil, great, like all these different natural oils that come from, you know, the earth and the things that we do, but castor oil specifically, there’s tons of research around castor oil and its ability to wear really, like, penetrate and saturate the area that you apply it to. Okay,

Johnny the Farmer 1:00:05
you think about the Lord teaching from the Mount of Olives, you know, the all of the is like the fruit that it’s 30% oil. So it’s very easy to extract the oil from that all of and you know, Messiah Christ, it literally means anointed one. And, you know, this is like a symbol throughout scriptures, you know, when, when David became king, you know, the prophet puts oil on his head. So it’s a special thing. It also says, you know, when you fast put some oil on, so there’s a lot of good reasons to, you know, or good encouragement from Scripture to do this. When you think about Big Pharma and what they’re doing, you know, their profit motive their systems working by making a brand new drug, getting a patent on it, and then for, you know, 30 years or so they have that time to make a lot of money. So these, by definition, these drugs or making money on don’t have long term studies. And, you know, because you want a study that shows like, well, you can eat it, and your kids are going to be good, they have nothing like that. They’re saying, Oh, maybe you know, six months out, you know, you could be good. And here’s the crazy thing, the FDA, they are captured organization, mostly funded by big pharma that they’re approving the drugs for, more than one out of three of the drugs they approve, are later pulled off the market for safety concerns. So, you know, probably the number should be greater, right, so it’s close to half close to half. So, Lord help us, you know, we can get back to what’s natural, we can grow our own food, we can grow our own medicine, we can own fuel, we can grow our own building materials, we can be self reliant, we can be autonomous and sovereign in a way. And what a beautiful, you know, this is like independence from the toxic consumerism, you know, and the Lord, he really in leuke really spoke against like the money, the filthy, mammon, the unrighteous wealth, the deceitfulness of riches, you know, this profit motive is, it’s unbelievable what it’s doing. And so we can, we can kind of withdraw from that we can be holy and separate from that we can be autonomous we can. And in the future, where more and more people see the challenges to come. Like we’re preparing for the challenges of, you know, whether it’s famine or scarcity or flooding, you know, it’s really ticks all the boxes, you know, if we have a big flood event, but you know, we have, you know, local agriculture done well, you know, we’ve prepared to prevent that kind of erosion. Yeah. And we see as Christians in the book of Revelation, it says that there’ll be a time where they’re gonna force everyone rich or poor, to take the mark of the beast to go to the market to buy things. Yeah. So this is a and the Mark of the Beast is disqualifying for, you know, being part of the kingdom. And so this is an encouragement to believers to be self reliant to be autonomous. To lean into. We can we can just fell for line with God to it’s in our blood. Yeah, God,

Paige C. Clark 1:03:09
I like God reliant. So like, you know, it’s not always about self but when we have God and Holy Spirit living within us, right, like then, when we become self reliant, we are ultimately relying on them as well. Yeah, I love this conversation because I’m, I hear your passion. And I, if anyone knows anything, like they literally, that brown bottle, right, there is my anointing.

Johnny the Farmer 1:03:36
Is that right? Yeah, a lot of so I carry around oil, because you can use it as a sunscreen, right? So it’s a mild sunscreen, it’s an SPF of four, which doesn’t sound like a lot compared to 30. But it means its sun protection factor. So it means I have four times i Burn, I’ll burn four times slower, or take four times longer to burn. So it’s actually blocking 75% of the race. And, but it’s it’s doing that with something that’s completely natural and good for me like a great moisturizer, rather than you look, you check the back of a sunscreen bottle. They’ll have known carcinogens in them sometimes, you know, 12 chemicals you can’t pronounce. You know, we can get back to what’s in our blood. what’s natural. Yeah. And the beauty of it. Yeah, I find design.

Paige C. Clark 1:04:25
Yeah, I think the one thing like that was really impactful. I was in a small group. And I don’t even know what we were talking about or how it kind of got brought up but someone said I love being in nature with God because it is the only place that is untainted by man. I love and I feel like that’s kind of like the ultimate like great, great way to wrap this. This conversation up is just like when we go out into nature, you know, whether it’s the forest or the mountains or you know, the beach or the coast or Whatever it is, whenever we go out into nature, it is a place that is how God created it. It is untainted. It’s not buildings in a parking structure, right? Like it is how God designed it to be. And so like, in that space, not that God can’t exist in those places, but in those spaces, were able to kind of go to God and connect with him without all that distraction that we were just talking about earlier.

Johnny the Farmer 1:05:31
I would add that yeah, though, the word challenge is maybe great. This is something that’s so important, and it’s an opportunity to do something so meaningful. That’s really special. I really believe this is the best way a lot of us can love ourselves and our communities. And yeah, it’s just beautiful. So why not? It feels good to feel good. And you know, yeah. Permaculture, I, I could go on and on. I just encourage you to think about doing more of this. Maybe you look into permaculture right, we can grow food forests. Chickens are great. Yeah. Sweet potatoes, potatoes. Butternut so there’s connect with the local gardening people. Yeah, squash. So good. And yeah, there’s a beautiful ways to do this, where we can, we can try to like, restore Eden and get back to its natural, the Lord’s there. He’s everywhere.

Paige C. Clark 1:06:31
Johnny, the farmer, which is going to be your name for all eternity in my head. Thank you so much for joining us. I always like to wrap up our conversation with one final question is, what is something someone can do this week? That is a faith building practice or discipline in their life to help them grow their faith?

Johnny the Farmer 1:06:49
Yeah, you know, we discussed waiting on the Lord. And we discussed kind of thinking of him and our challenges and what he would do. And yeah, maybe so maybe sow some seeds, save some seeds and share them. How about that? That’s good. Yes. You know, the Proverbs 31. woman, she’s so great, this wife a noble character, a pillar of the community, one of the things she did is she considered a field, and she bought it and she planted a vineyard. So some cool things we can do.

Paige C. Clark 1:07:18
So go plant something, go down to your local hardware store, or wherever that has plants that you can go your local farmer, and go plant something this week, and see the lessons that God has taught you through it.

Johnny the Farmer 1:07:33
We can be co creators with Christ’s redeeming all the creation, all of creation is groaning waiting for the for the revealing of the sons of men and all of creation is to take part in the salvation not not just the souls of men. So yeah, what a beautiful honor and a privilege that we get to be a part of.

Paige C. Clark 1:07:55
I love it. Thank you so much, Johnny. And where can people find more information about you? Where do you exist online? Or if they want to hear more from you? Where can they go for that?

Johnny the Farmer 1:08:06
Yeah, lately, I’ve been doing a lot on Twitter, we’ve been there’s something kind of similar to a podcast called a space where different people can come in and chime in, come in and ask questions and talking about gardening for a good bit. Saturday mornings. At Stern, we’ve been going for like six hours recently. That’s awesome. People get to get talking about it. There’s so much to talk about a lot of people come and share and it’s great. And yeah, so the link in the comments, plant paradise seven is my Twitter handle love and also, yeah, also do kind of spaces that are more kind of Christian focused. And yeah, talking about the Lord and fellowship. And yeah, have a podcast there. I think you set the link there in the bio on Spotify. So yeah,

Paige C. Clark 1:08:50
well do. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. I got like in this conversation could have gone for six hours, but I’m practicing self control and cutting us off. So thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for listening and we’ll catch you guys next week.

Johnny the Farmer 1:09:06
All right. All right. Nice to talk to you have a good week.

Paige C. Clark 00:42
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of 95 Faith. I’m here with one of my new friends Lauren Lauren, how are you doing today?

Lauren Vander Linden 00:51
Hey, Paige, I’m good. So good meeting with you.

Paige C. Clark 00:55
Yes, happy Friday as well. And we’re getting ready to enter into a weekend any weekend plans.

Lauren Vander Linden 01:03
Oh, man. You know, I am actually preaching at church on Sunday. So I need to take some time tomorrow and go over my sermon. But other than that, we’re just going to enjoy being outside while also trying to avoid the heat. So that’s our plan. What about you?

Paige C. Clark 01:22
I feel you Oh, I was just texting my husband. I was like, I need a haircut. I need a haircut so desperately right now. And so I was like, like, my stylus isn’t available. And I’m like, Who can I find that like, can get me in in a last minute, because I’m like, so close to picking up the pair of scissors myself. So either practicing Gree restraint or finding when we all Yeah, yep, exactly. Exactly. So can you tell our audience a little bit about yourself and what you do and why we’re talking to you today?

Lauren Vander Linden 01:58
Sure, so my name is Lauren Vanderlinden. And I live in Des Moines, Iowa. I work at Principal Financial Group. So we’re a fortune 250 company. And really our mission is to help make financial products accessible to all. We we have a lot of employers who lean on us for 401 K’s pension plans, Aesop’s any retirement products. We also have insurance and asset management. So I lead our annuities operations area and so any processing that is needed for people to purchase an annuity product rolls up through my organization. And I married my husband, Travis and I like I said, we live in Des Moines. We’ve been married two and a half, almost three years now. So we actually had a COVID wedding. I don’t know Paige when you got married.

Paige C. Clark 02:47
Tell us a half years ago now.

Lauren Vander Linden 02:52
Oh, wow. Okay, so you have a speed. You’re double. That yeah, we got married. Got married during COVID. And, you know, things have been going great ever since. And, you know, I’ve one thing that I think is important to note is that I have moved around quite a bit in life. made me who I am. But yeah, Des Moines is home right now.

Paige C. Clark 03:15
Right now has it all like, why Iowa? Like why Des Moines?

Lauren Vander Linden 03:21
Oh, yeah, so I was born here. Born and raised here. I lived in Texas for a little bit. I moved to Missouri in high school and college. And then I moved back to Des Moines. I I love it here. It’s a really great city. I think it’s kind of a kept secret. But the winter like tours, a lot of people, okay, from living here, and I understand that too.

Paige C. Clark 03:43
I understand that. A lot of my neighbors are from the Midwest and they are just escaping the snow. It’s the only reason why they live here. So

Lauren Vander Linden 03:52
yeah, Paige, where are you? I’m in Arizona.

Paige C. Clark 03:54
So it is hot and sunny here. It is like 113 today that Oh,

Lauren Vander Linden 04:03
yeah. Actually, it’s around 100. Here. The last week has been really hot that Arizona is where we escaped to in the winter. Yeah. Oh,

Paige C. Clark 04:11
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We lovingly call you guys all snowbirds. Because our freeways get a little backed up during the winters because of all the snowbirds. And it’s always good time. Absolutely. Great. So I know nothing of the financial space. Have you always worked in that space? Have you always kind of been doing this? Like how did that kind of fall into your plan of things?

Lauren Vander Linden 04:42
Yeah, in college, I either wanted to be a dermatologist or a lawyer. And then I did an internship, right. It never goes, how you plan it. I did an internship back up in Des Moines for an insurance brokerage firm. And I really just was drawn to finance I’ve always liked math. So I ended up majoring in finance. And then got a job with principal when I graduated from Missouri State, actually with my MBA. So, you know, everyone in this industry says, Oh, I never thought I would be selling insurance or in retirement like it was anyone’s dream. But I was in church, when I first started my career, and they were talking just about how, you know, God has ordained you and purpose to you for your job. And I was trying to connect parallels. And you know, there are so many examples in the Bible about storing up for the winter and consider the aunt who stores up food. And, you know, when we think about that, it really is the same for retirement, which is what I work in right now. But there’s a lot of applications and biblical discussions around money and how we’re using our money. And so that is how I connected that as I stepped into this field and continue working in it.

Paige C. Clark 05:58
Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing. I think like, yeah, there’s like two, in my mind, at least, there’s two camps of thought. And like, neither of them, I think, is wrong or right, I just think that like, there’s those who are working in their space for like, some greater meaning. And then one thing that I’ve been taught through just talking through the guests on this show, is that God can use where you’re currently at in order to bless you and other areas in your life. Absolutely. And that has been like a really cool realization that I think a lot in the church we talk about, like your purpose and your calling. And like when we say that, like, I mean, at least my brain goes to like, oh, what’s your job? When really like, your job is just one piece of it. And like, God can work through your job in a multitude of different ways that doesn’t have anything to do with your job to do with your other life.

Lauren Vander Linden 07:02
Yeah, that is so true. For a while, I felt I probably had that perspective, where I felt like, Okay, I’m, I’m just working, and this is how I make my income. And now like, what else do I have to do? Forgot? What, what else do I need to do in order to have my purpose. And while I still do a lot of things kind of on the side, and I have a lot of passions, I do feel like the Lord convicted me and just said, you know, I have you in this space. And this is your mission field. And this is the world that I’ve put you in. So don’t negate it. Right? Yeah. You know, this, this is very much a calling to. But yeah, it’s tough kind of knowing where the line is between your purpose versus your job, your nine to five. You know, everyone says, Oh, if you do what you love, you’ll never work a day in your life. And then like, well, I love going to the beach. So who will pay me for that? Actually, no one will pay me to do that. So I think I need to get a job. So you know, you find yourself at this crossroads isn’t my purpose isn’t my calling. And I think it all comes down to your perspective, kind of like you were saying, Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 08:12
And it’s not limited to just one thing. I think that’s something else that like, how we talk about it gets distorted a little bit, because I’m like, it’s not just, you know, a purpose. It could be. It’s the purpose for whatever season you’re in. Right. And so, um, you know, I think it was my first episode or the second episode that I did with my guest, and she was just saying, like, she’s working. I feel so bad. I can’t recall right now. But she was working in some just kind of like, random field that she like, had never anticipated herself working in. And yeah, like, she was able to work from home and spend more time with her son. And that was her purpose for this season. And I’m like, You know what I mean? Like, it’s, it’s not so, like, clear, and like cookie cutter, because I feel like a lot of the times when we hear people preaching from like the pulpit, it’s a lot like this isn’t my purpose is to like, be a pastor. And like, that’s their only thing that they’re doing and all that. But I would argue to say that like for the 90% of us, other Christians who don’t work in full time ministry, yeah, our lives don’t look like that.

Lauren Vander Linden 09:26
Yeah, it’s funny, you say that my boss actually got saved while I was working for her a couple years ago, and now I don’t, I did not lead her to the Lord. That is so great having that connection after the fact. And she told us that at her church, you know, in their discipleship class, they said, Okay, so you just got saved. Most people after they get saved, they feel like they need to quit their nine to five, and you know, go live out their purpose in ministry or pursue something. They said, We love that passion, but don’t forget that you know, God has you where your you are. And if we all quit our nine to five and did ministry, we would be really ineffective at getting into those places where lost people are.

Paige C. Clark 10:10
Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. I love that. I feel like there’s a more to her salvation story, or I mean, maybe there’s not but like anything else that like you have to say about like ministering to your colleagues and your boss and all of that in, in a secular industry.

Lauren Vander Linden 10:33
It can be so hard. You know, I actually had kind of, I don’t know, if a faux pas the right way to say it the other day that I, I thought that someone was a Christian I referenced like, oh, just leave it in the Lord’s hands. It’ll all work out. And I could tell upon saying that they were, you know, they didn’t receive that very well, just by their body language. And, you know, it got back to me that they felt I had mentioned religion and come to find out they’ve actually lost their faith. So it’s really tricky, especially when you feel like you’re being wise and and talking to the right people. Some of the really practical ways that I insert my faith into the workplace is when someone asked me about my weekend, I don’t leave out church. That’s a great way to talk about church. If I’m preaching, I’ll talk about I’m preaching at church on Sunday, or I’m using this example. And then one thing that I’ve done is I actually have integrated the Craig Groeschel leadership podcast, okay. He’s the pastor of Life Church, and he has a really great leadership podcast. And it’s actually for business leaders. It’s not just for Christians or for ministers, I got permission from our HR area. And someone let me do it, right. I didn’t fill out a formal write sheet or anything that I got permission from our HR area, to show these podcasts to people who are wanting to be in leadership or informal leadership. Yeah, the number of people who I’ve had asked me, Hey, what was that guy’s name? Or what church like, I actually kind of like listening to him. It’s been really cool to see that. So those are just some ways that I infuse that into the workplace. Yeah, but you, Paige,

Paige C. Clark 12:23
I mean, it’s rough for me. I, I mean, not that I’m a closeted Christian at my workplace. But it is very difficult to be able to speak into the lives of people who have very strong opinions against Christians. And not saying, you know, I’ve been, I mean, there have been situations where like, things have definitely been said, against my faith and my beliefs and everything like that. Not pointed towards me, but just like, more generally speaking. And it’s, it’s difficult also, because one, I’m completely remote, I’ve never met any of my co workers in person. And the other part too, is kind of the team structure of how we’re kind of laid out is very much so kind of independent in in terms of like, you show up, you do your work. If you have a problem, you go to your leaders. But other than that, you’re kind of on your own. So it’s a really interesting dynamic to kind of find myself in but I’d say more times than not, not that I’m closeted, or shy about my faith or anything. But it’s definitely way more difficult to kind of infuse any talk about Jesus into my, into my like, regular conversations, but they know I run this podcast, so if they’re listening, you guys are welcome to church anytime.

Lauren Vander Linden 14:09
That’s great. I know. Okay, that’s what

Paige C. Clark 14:12
I was just gonna say. But that’s about like the extent that I’ve ever been able to talk to my colleagues about what I do and my failure.

Lauren Vander Linden 14:20
It can be so tough to because you really don’t want to be off putting in your approach. And yet, if I if I try to new supplement or diet pill or whatever, that changed my life, I right, of course, talk about it with the people that I see every day. Yeah, you know, Jesus has changed our lives and it can be hard to talk about. I know John Maxwell, he always he he’s coached a lot of senior leaders that yeah, fortune 500 companies and he will not talk about his faith until he’s added value to their life. So before he wants to talk about about, you know, his life and what’s impacted him, he’ll, you know, pause and wait and just build a relationship and build that trust. And I think that there are times where the Holy Spirit prompts you to share your faith and you need to be obedient. But more often than not, it is that slow process of just trust that’s most effective.

Paige C. Clark 15:18
Yeah, no, I completely agree to and like, if you look at Jesus and His ministry, and like, of course, like Jesus knew all and so he was able to speak more into people’s lives in a much quicker fashion. But I think of like, how, how was Jesus able to, specifically minister to people and like, I guess, like, turn them around, I was gonna say, convert, but I’m like, that’s not the right word. But like, you know, get them to kind of repent and turn around in quick ways. And it was, but it was through knowing them. You know, the woman at the well, who had many husbands, you know, so to speak, and all that I don’t like Jesus demonstrated knowledge of her and her experience, one because he’s all knowing. And so he knew, but like, as a model, to be able to get to know or to be able to minister effectively to the people around us. It first comes through knowing people.

Lauren Vander Linden 16:21
That is so true. So

Paige C. Clark 16:24
I once watched his one YouTube clip, I can’t remember who it is, gosh, my brain is just, it’s already on weekend mode. But I was watching this one YouTube clip, and it was this guy, he was a Christian guy. And he he goes around and prays for people and just kind of interviews people about their faith. And he goes, you know, who you never hear people talk to is like, the corner preachers, and like kind of hellfire and brimstone people and on the street. And so he went up to them and started asking them questions. And I was like, you know, what, like, just seeing the humanity in, in everyone, you know, like, yeah, in everyone was he was able to, like, go up and like, pray for these people. Not in a way that was like, stop what you’re doing, but in a way, just like meeting them where they’re at?

Lauren Vander Linden 17:24
Yeah, that’s so impactful. It’s interesting, because in our world today, you know, there’s, there might be a lot of offence or a lot of bitterness, and we categorize people. But I would want someone to just come and talk to me if they had an issue. Or if they disagreed with how I lived, or if they wondered why I lived, how I lived. Even if they don’t decide to do that to write I want someone to just talk to me about it. So kudos to him for just yeah, I’m going up and being willing to have the conversation. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 17:54
And with people who you might disagree with their approach and everything. And one thing I say to my husband, a lot is, like, think about how much you think you’re right. About, sometimes it comes up in politics, but like even like, even with your faith, think about how much you know, you’re right. That’s how much they think they’re right. Yeah. And like when you’re able to kind of like sit with that. And just like marinate on that, you realize you stop demonizing the other.

Lauren Vander Linden 18:34
Yeah. Oh, that is so good. I thought about that when it comes to I mean, I think politics is probably the best example that we can all write to. But I just remember seeing a post from someone I know who had voted different than me in the last election. And there what they were saying was exactly how I was feeling. And I thought, okay, so we are more alike than we are different. Maybe we disagree with the solutions. Maybe we think that, you know, we’re not bought in on the other candidate for whatever reason, right? But you know, we, we all want a better world. None of us want to be deceived. None of us want people in power who are going to manipulate us, you know, and if you can focus on that commonality that is really powerful. That’s how you’re going to see change in Unity. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 19:23
yeah, for sure. And I think too, like the the one thing that that I kind of rely on, especially when it comes to politics, but I also think like, for the majority of people, of course, there’s the people who like just up and turn their back on God and like Kherson and all that stuff. But I would say the majority of people, you know, don’t fall as like Satanists. But I think like, for especially in politics, though, we all kind of agree on the desk. destination. Yeah, for the most part, we are agree on the destination. It’s the how you get there. Yes, that matters. Yeah, for example, and like not even saying what I believe, but like, think about like the topic of like abortion, for example, people who want abortion to be, you know, freely accessible and easy. What are they doing? They’re caring for the mother. Right? Like they’re like, Okay, like, we want to make sure that this woman is taken care of. Well, people who are against abortion go like, Oh, no, we want that too. Right? Like the destination is the same. Yeah, but how you get there is very different. Same with like religion. And I’d argue to say like, most people want to end up in heaven. Right. But like, yeah, we know,

Lauren Vander Linden 20:50
people want eternal life for me like, right, most people question What happens after death?

Paige C. Clark 20:55
Yeah. And so like, I think the biggest disagreement is like, how do we get there? Like how, like, what’s the how we want to end up in heaven? What’s the how? And so I think like, when we’re able to, not to say there are multiple ways to get to heaven ain’t preaching that Jesus. But I think people are asking themselves that. And I think that when we are able to realize that, like, we’re kind of all asking, or after the same destination, it kind of like, calm, like, puts a calm in the room and gets everyone kind of like on equal ground a little bit.

Lauren Vander Linden 21:32
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of people when I see them get fired up the most, they’re fired up because they think the other person, party, whatever issue it is, doesn’t understand what we’re fighting for. And if you can say we have common ground of what we’re fighting for, then I think you’ve you’ve taken the first step.

Paige C. Clark 21:53
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So now, kind of realigning to the beginning of our talk, when you were saying like, Oh, you’re doing a sermon this weekend, which is very exciting. What does your like weekly church involvement look like? And then also also tack on to that, like, what does your daily relationship with God look like?

Lauren Vander Linden 22:20
Yeah, I love it. Before I answer that page, I have to laugh that we have already broached religion and politics, which are the two things you’re not supposed to talk about in the very true on the podcast,

Paige C. Clark 22:34
very true. But I will say I will say, it depends on what side you are on. Because, because that was kind of what I was talking about earlier is like, like, I am not okay to talk about my religion. But if you are agnostic or you know, atheistic and everything, it is okay to kind of curse God or like, roll your eyes at Jesus believers are something so you are allowed to talk about it, but it has to align with the current. What’s the hot ticket of the moment?

Lauren Vander Linden 23:13
Yeah, and sometimes you just wish that like the freeway worked both ways. Yeah, I know that there was a traffic jam on one side. But as Christians, that’s one of the best ways we can shine our light is, though they’re trying to offend us. We refuse to take offense. Yeah. I mean, and we’ll even cater to their offense. Right. And, to an extent, yeah,

Paige C. Clark 23:36
I think also just like looking out for those things to where like, you can speak truth and accuracy to situations. I’ll give you an example. My work. I work for an HR solutions company. So we are all about the rep is representation, legality, fair inclusion, all of it like that is like, there. Okay. Like more so than other companies, I will say. And so one thing that my company does that we have a really great communications team, I’m on it. It’s fine, guys. Sorry. No, we have a really solid communications team and even an internal communications team. And like my company has a couple 1000 employees like it’s a pretty big company. Yeah. And and one thing that they put out like a ton of internal comms meaning like, anytime you want to know like when there’s an there’s an all hands meeting that comes from internal comms for those listening who are like, I don’t know what that is. Or like, if there’s like, if everyone’s getting the day off, or the day after Thanksgiving, like they’re the people who kind of arranged that make sure it’s communicated to everyone. And so around Christmas of last year, because I have no This just a tendency of just in just not in our industry, but just like, culturally speaking of, you know, like taking the Christ and a Christmas like, you know, doing that whole thing of like, Yeah, not really understanding like what Christmas is about. And same with Easter. And there’s been like, you know, when you talk about Hanukkah, or like any of like, the big Jewish holidays or Ramadan even right, like you get a full an accurate picture of what those religious holidays mean. Whereas like Christmas and Easter, you don’t really. And so I paid specific attention at my work for Christmas and Easter this year, this past year. To see how they talked about Christmas and Easter. Yeah. And if they accurately portray the religious holiday that it is, and they did, but like, oh, yeah, they did. They like said, like, oh, you know, this is a Christian holiday where they believe like, Christian, or Jesus was born to a virgin Mary, or like when Jesus when Christians believe that this is when Jesus was crucified and all of that stuff. And I was just like, looking out for that, because not that I wanted to do a gotcha moment. And in case they didn’t, but really, I wanted the representation of Christianity to be accurate in my workplace. And so that is just like a little something I like if you guys have anything like that at your work. That is something you mentioned to as well.

Lauren Vander Linden 26:40
I love that. It’s so cool that you were probably in a position where you could have had influence too, but they were already on it.

Paige C. Clark 26:48
Yeah. So we’re already on it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The question for you.

Lauren Vander Linden 26:55
Yes. So it’s, you know, what is my church involvement look like? Right? Okay, this is, this is? I’m excited to answer this question. So when I first moved up to Iowa, I was a part of a church plant, I still am at that church. But the church was launching, it was in a new church. And our pastor I had known from when I was younger, his dad was actually my pastor growing up. And he was moving back to Des Moines and starting a church. And I was moving back to Des Moines for my corporate job. And I was on the worship team at a pretty large church down in Missouri. And I told him, You know, I’m happy to be on your worship team, happy to be at your church. And I can send you resumes of people who are on the worship team, or, you know, raise the hands of people who would be good worship pastors. And eventually, he was just like, yeah, you’re gonna be our worship pastor, like, I don’t have, you know, budget to hire, I don’t have contacts, no one’s moving to Des Moines for this, like, you’re going to be it. And reluctantly, I stepped into that role. And honestly, it was, it was great for a season, I probably let it go on a little too long. I think it’s important to not confuse spending time with God versus spending time working for the church, or, you know, volunteering in any capacity. Both are important, please, if you if you’re volunteering at your church, and you’re not spending time with God, before you stop volunteering, figure out a rhythm for spending time with God. Don’t just blame volunteering, and quit everything to do your church. That’s an important piece of being a part of the body of Christ. But for me, that line definitely blurred. Yeah, but I felt like just because I was doing things for the church, I was spending time with God, and it can really leave you feeling depleted. And you know, for me, I was I was Go Go Go busy all the time. And I didn’t do a great job of setting boundaries. Something that I learned is that, you know, the person who’s asking you to do things, they’re not wrong for asking, right there. They don’t know your capacity. They don’t know if you want the opportunity. Or if you don’t, you have to set that boundary for your own life. And that was one of the things I learned. So working a nine to five job that as time went on, it got harder and harder. I probably should have stepped down from the leadership position a while ago because I was volunteer. Yeah, you know, God has timing for everything. I felt like he was calling me to step down very clearly. I delayed it a little probably a little too long, and had a conversation with my pastor just saying, hey, I’ll need to step down by April of next year. And I felt like I at first I was gonna say actually, I could probably go till September if needed. I really felt in my spirit. Don’t say that. April of next year, like yesterday of next year is what it’s going to be So I held firm on that date. And sure enough, I started and author school, the same week that I stepped down from serving as the worship team leader. And I felt like God was preparing me for that. Had I been disobedient, I’d never would have written my book. So I think it’s all a balance of spending time with God and making time to volunteer at church, but you can’t do it all. And I probably learned that the hard way.

Paige C. Clark 30:28
Yeah. How do you think that churches can not better cater to people who work full time, but, like, offer the bridge of understanding to that?

Lauren Vander Linden 30:47
It definitely depends on the church environment that you’re in, I think it takes some conviction on your part to say, even if you don’t understand why I can’t serve this week, this is important for me, and I don’t have a good reason. Like I’m in town. I don’t have anything going else going on. I’ll be at church. But today’s my Sabbath. And I know that if I don’t take this day, I won’t, I will not be able to meet the needs that God’s placed in front of me for the next week. So some of that takes conviction from us to say, I’m not doing anything wrong by saying, no, yeah. One thing that I am pretty passionate about, and thankfully, my pastor has been understanding and always was when I was in the dual role. You need a Sabbath. And for a lot of church people, if you’re doing stuff on Sunday for the church, and you work full time, I would caution you to not make that a weekly thing where you’re doing stuff on Saturday and Sunday for the church, right? You need a Sabbath and your church should be encouraging you to have a Sabbath. Yeah. I feel very strongly in that conviction. Now, there might be pastors who say, well, in the New Testament, we learned that Jesus is our Sabbath. So we can, you know, forget the law of the Old Testament, but you would never say that about any of the other 10 remnants. Yeah, you would never say that murder is now. Okay. So my personal conviction is that churches need to encourage people to take a Sabbath and understand when they do,

Paige C. Clark 32:24
yeah, yeah. And I think too, like I’ve been really blessed at, at the church that I’m currently at, and that the way that they treat their volunteers is they treat them as volunteers. Yeah. You know, like they’re not, whereas like me, I’m like, like, recovering people pleaser. And like, I will always like, like, I just Magnus start working with our young adult ministry. And I just met awesome. Yesterday. Yesterday, I just met with the young adults director, and I was meeting with him. And he was talking to me about like, oh, like, here’s, like, the different areas that you can serve. Here. I’m just like, but where do you need help? Because that’s where I’ll be like, I’ll help you. Like, I don’t care. Like if like, I have to, you know, break down chairs, like, I can do it, I will happily do it. If that’s what you need, you know, always identify where the need is. And they’re like, oh, yeah, we’ll get you on the schedule. I’m like, Well, why? Why don’t we need a schedule? I’ll just show up every week. Yeah, there’s things like that, where all I have to kind of like, remove myself from that. But yeah, I think it’s I think it’s a church culture. And I’ve never been like on staff or like in full time ministry, but I think it a lot of it is how I can only presume but it’s how church leadership trickles down the message to like church staff about these are, these are our volunteers. Right? Right. Like, they’re volunteering our time. And so, I mean, my my pastor gets all throw punchy about, that’s what he calls them throw punches. Yeah, like the worst. The hard way is the hard truth. I’m gonna butcher hard truth at the right time or said the right way or something like that. But he, he stood up said the other day, it was something on tithing and giving and everything like that. And he says, like, this was actually just this past Sunday, but he said, to have one kid in, like in ministry, for the whole year cost us $1,000. Wow. So we if you have three kids, that’s 1000. That’s $3,000 for the year. Are you giving that much because if you’re not you’re taking away from the church. Wow, like super thrilled. Yeah, I mean, specifically to like the members in the law. long enough, not the first time people there, but but I think it comes from the top down of that message of like, you know, he talks a lot about volunteerism and but the way that they treat the volunteers, or like their volunteers and not like their employees, because I have seen it done that way,

Lauren Vander Linden 35:18
completely. So, so different. And you know, there would be people when I was leading the worship team who they would feel so sad, or, you know, they would feel so bad, like declining a week or taking a week off. And I’m like, Okay, I care about you, more than I do what you can bring to the church. And that’s hard when you’re leading worship, and you’re like, I care about you so much. But if you decline, we don’t have a drummer. No. But you always have to keep that at your forefront, like you as a person are worth way more to me, like you as a brother or sister in Christ is worth way more to me than if we have to do an acoustic set this week. Right. And, and sometimes I think the pressure of churches being excellent, which we absolutely should be, we definitely strive for a culture of excellence. But that pressure can keep us in a place where sometimes it’s easy to to use people. And I think it’s just something we have to be mindful of. Because yeah, I don’t think it’s something anyone intends. Oh, yeah. And 100% what you’re saying, I feel like our church has a good volunteer culture. And I think my pastor does a great job. I would hate for any of this to reflect poorly on where I’m at. Oh, yeah. It’s just something everyone has to be mindful of. Because whenever you’re on a mission to reach people, we as Christians should all agree that that is the number one mission. Yeah, but like, we cannot be Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible all the time. Like, our cortisol does not handle it. Right. It’ll spike out of the wazoo. Yeah. So I think it’s just important to keep that in mind as you’re serving. And if you’re ever leading someone who’s serving,

Paige C. Clark 37:01
yeah, and I think too, it’s like, you know, that own personal like responsibility of like drying up those boundaries, like you were talking about earlier. Of like, they’re not mind reader’s, like, no, they, they are just operating how they know how to operate. But like, you can inform them and educate them of like, where you’re at, like, I, earlier this year, my husband had had a cancer diagnosis like a cancerous tumor. And at that time, like he was volunteering every other Saturday, and I was the Saturdays in between. And sometimes we doubled up and any Saturday that we both volunteered, we did not see each other on Saturday. And it was just like a time suck and an energy suck. And I just like told the, you know, volunteer coordinator for where I, I help out in production, I was just like, listen, like, I need to just not have my brain here. Like, I need to be putting my whole energy at home right now. And that was fine. And guess what? In September, I’ll probably be back. So you know, it’s, yeah, it’s a balance that like, but it’s something I had to draw for myself. And I would encourage any of those people listening, who finds themselves in the situation of like, hey, like, did you draw a boundary for yourself, not not to get out of volunteering, but to also make sure that your whole self is healthy.

Lauren Vander Linden 38:27
I think you hit the nail on the head, I want to tell a story about someone in the professional environment. But just to respond to that. And, you know, it’s easy to look at what we’re doing and say, Well, I have other dreams and the volunteering at the church might be holding me back. If you’re not working on those other dreams, volunteering at church is not the thing holding you back. Right? Volunteering is a really important part of being in the body of believers. But it’s coupled with setting that boundary. Right. And so the the boundary story that I want to tell you so I work for a fortune 250. Similar to your business page. It’s a large company. I worked in investor relations for a period of time, which is when we do earnings calls with the stock market. Right, right. So at that time, it was earnings call season, and our new CFO had just been announced and she was about she was kind of stepping into the role. And you know, this would have been like her first earnings call. And we scheduled the meeting at 4pm to go over things now. earnings call, you’re usually working until 10pm for two weeks straight, right, right. So we scheduled a meeting at 4pm within the eight to five work hours and she declined it and said I can’t. Connor has a basketball game. So I needed to go see my son’s game. And I just could not believe that our new CFO was able to set a bell Laundry like that and still be promoted to CEO. She was setting boundaries like this her whole career. And I’m thankful that my companies still decided to promote her. But she set that boundary. She got that meeting invite, none of us knew her son had a basketball game. Right? You had to set that boundary.

Paige C. Clark 40:18
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think to like, things that come up with like, work and whatnot. I mean, me working in social media, like, especially in the beginning of my career, that was like a really hard boundary, mostly because like, I took on way too much work without saying, you know, my own boundary, but like I do working weekends. And you know, not that like that time wouldn’t, you know, get off set somewhere else. But I didn’t have that boundary in my life to be able to take a Sabbath where I like, take a whole friggin day, and like, do a whole lot of nothing. But like, even so. So I work in like, the production side, or I volunteer in the production side at my church, which means I run their social media live streams, which is also what I like, I don’t run live streams, but I’m on social media every single day, because that’s what I do for work. Yeah. So I’ve told people and like, this is like the firm thing. I said, I will volunteer Saturday, or Sunday. Right? Right. I’m not working on social media. One day of the 10 days, yeah, right. Right. Like I need at least one day to not do it. Like, you know, I always say like, if it’s a pinch, and you really need someone, like, sure we can talk about that. But like, this is something that I’m setting for myself of like, hey, like, I need a day off of working off of social media. And yeah, it’s just like how you go forward and how you set those boundaries. And I think to like, even stepping into a secular workplace might not be a basketball game, but it’s working on the weekends. Sorry, like, unless you work for like Chick fil A or a bank or something like you’re you might have to work a Sunday like, right or whatever day you decide for your Sabbath. Yeah. So you know, that’s a hard boundary to set. But I always advise people do it at the beginning, because it’s easier to do it at the beginning and hold it up and like start something new. Yeah, I totally agree. That’s just my own two cents.

Lauren Vander Linden 42:21
I totally agree. It’s so important. It’s cool to see that we’re on the same page with it to it. You definitely you know, you need both. I hate to see people use it as an excuse to not serve. But most people I’ve found, they’re using serving as the excuse to not Sabbath. And you need both.

Paige C. Clark 42:41
Yeah. I’ve never really thought of that. But like, I think that’s like a really good point. Like, yeah, it’s about and I mean, especially for like the people who are doing the surveying, like above and beyond, you know, kind of like what your typical churchgoer is probably doing. I think those are the people i What is it? The Enneagram tos, the TOS, who are the helpers? Oh, the twos are the helpers and the threes achieve. So yes, the twos and the threes, we need to have a talk like, yeah,

Lauren Vander Linden 43:14
I am a three and I’m a three wing two. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That actually, it’s interesting, because I know in our dialogue before the podcast, you know, one of the questions you asked was, what’s one of the hardest things you struggle with with your faith? And mine would definitely be earning my salvation earning right standing with God. Thinking that, you know, a performance based faith. If I if I didn’t read my Bible today, it’s a, you know, a day negative one. Yeah. Today, if I didn’t read it in the morning, because it needs to be first fruits. It’s a down. And my grandma really spoke some truth into my life recently. And she was a pastor’s wife. My grandpa was a pastor. And she just said, Lauren, I couldn’t get up early for that, you know, 21 days of prayer, or even just like they had a Friday morning prayer service. She’s like, I felt like I was going to throw up the rest of the day. Like, I slept in. I went and did my job. And then I spent time with the Lord when I got home. And I think remembering that, you know, if you convince yourself that by volunteering more and more and more that you are somehow in better standing than the person who has set boundaries, I hate to break it to you. You are only wearing yourself out.

Paige C. Clark 44:37
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then also like, it’s like a heart posture. I mean, like, you know, it’s like the work thing like none of us want to work like but like, we end up we do it and same with volunteering. You’re not always going to want to volunteer but like, it is something that like you know, that is sorry, you know No, that is something that we are called to do as the body of Christ. And, you know, taking it into that versus like, I’m achieving, like, I need to get this done. I need the a plus I need the gold star. You know, there’s different heart postures. And I think at the end of the day, like, that’s what it really comes down to, at least for me.

Lauren Vander Linden 45:21
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So important when you’re serving, and you hit the nail on the head, the heart posture. Yeah. And anything, right?

Paige C. Clark 45:28
Yeah. Now, Lauren, thank you so much for joining us. I always like to end up and our show with one very fun question is, what is something that our audience can walk away with today after listening this episode, and they can go and do to help them grow their faith, whether it’s a practice or a discipline, and not doing it for the gold star, but doing it for something else doing it for our faith, growth and relationship with God?

Lauren Vander Linden 45:58
I think one of the biggest things is, especially for people who are working full time jobs, or have really busy schedules, you know, maybe your kids wake up early in the morning, as early as you and you just can’t fit in a Devo. Don’t underestimate what one verse when two minutes of prayer, what one worship song where you turn it on, and you you’re able to shut out the rest of the noise can do for your spiritual health. I’ve seen that in my own life where when I even just don’t go to bed unless I read one verse of the Bible. I am amazed at how God uses one verse to reset me and reset my heart. Get me in a better, you know, posture, have more faith for things, you know, God’s Word is living an active. So don’t underestimate what even just one verse can do. Don’t get in the mindset that because you can’t spend an hour on a Saturday morning and God’s word, that he’s not going to be able to change your life and impact your life through it. Yeah. And then just another tangible thing with that. For me, listening to worship on a regular basis, or even just Christian music really helps keep me connected to the Lord, when maybe I am not prioritizing quiet time with God. And of course, I always want to, but I don’t. That’s just the reality of it. But I always noticed the difference when I start listening and not that all secular music is bad. But when I start listening to two different things, worship music is what resets that mindset I heart and it helps me be the best version of me without really thinking about. Yeah, so I would encourage your listeners to do that. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 47:46
that’s a great point. I I definitely work out to worship music

Lauren Vander Linden 47:50
and Christian music. Yeah. And KB you listen to KB?

Paige C. Clark 47:53
Yes, yes, I have k, maybe I’ll put like this in the episode link, but I have an entire playlist. And it’s all it’s all clean Christian. But it’s like it’s a good playlist and I need to 45 minutes long, but it’s like a good workout playlist, and I call it sound good jams. And that’s like my workout, but I usually go to so I have to link that in this episode. Yeah, yes. Now Lauren, where can people find you? Where can they learn more about you get in touch if they want to follow you and your musings.

Lauren Vander Linden 48:29
Yes. You can find me on Instagram at Lauren dot Vanderlinden. I have a long name. My husband was Dutch. So you can find me on Instagram. You can find me on YouTube. If you search Lauren Vanderlinden I have sermons that will come up. And I actually have a book coming out in the spring of next year, spring summer of next year. And I’m so excited. I think it’s really going to help people and it’s all about forgiving, releasing bitterness and moving on from past hurt. Oh,

Paige C. Clark 48:59
I love it. Thank you so much, Lauren for joining us is a true true pleasure. And we’ll catch you guys next week.

Paige C. Clark 0:39
If need be. Okay, cool. Now we’re good. What were you gonna say? I was gonna say, I have a stream yard account for the company. Okay, so we can move it to the stream yard if need be. So this is good. I’m doing it to the cloud this time. So like, hopefully also, like, my computer’s like The Little Engine That Could. It is a very old computer. I mean, and by old I mean, it’s like 2015 2006

Ryan Wiggins 1:01
Oh, wow. It’s

Paige C. Clark 1:04
it is it like needs an AARP card and everything. It’s a struggle. And it just like, you know, it turns on, unlike Airplane Mode is something different from my laptop, where it sounds like you’re on an actual airplane, like, the engine star works lovely. Is

Ryan Wiggins 1:20
it windows? Oh, gosh, no, it’s an app. Okay. Okay. I was gonna say that’s

Paige C. Clark 1:25
woof. No,

Ryan Wiggins 1:26
you’re you’re running.

Paige C. Clark 1:30
Running a few decades behind myself. No, it’s an apple. I’m like an apple person through and through. So. Um, well, awesome. Welcome, Ryan. I’m so glad you can join us. Today. Friday. Right. Yay. Weekend. Where are you located at?

Ryan Wiggins 1:48
I’m in San Antonio, Texas.

Paige C. Clark 1:50
I just talked to someone from Austin. Oh, man,

Ryan Wiggins 1:53
we don’t we don’t claim Austin.

Paige C. Clark 1:57
Fair enough. Fair enough. All that to say it’s hot. Yeah, wherever you’re at and hot. Where I’m at, too. I’m in Arizona. So it Oh, nice. You know, I was almost in Arizona today. Almost really? Wait, hold on. How were you almost so.

Ryan Wiggins 2:13
So like I told you, we do consulting. And we had a podcast appearance in Arizona last night. So my boss is out there right now. And we were going to I think he has another one tonight as well. So we’re gonna be all in Arizona. This this past

Paige C. Clark 2:28
week could have done the first in person recording. And that would have been so much fun. But I’m just in my little like office in my

Ryan Wiggins 2:38
Well, my, my wife was at camp with the youth at our church and painted me to be with the dog. So I was like, I can’t go, Doug. And I’m a little upset about that. But you know, hey,

Paige C. Clark 2:48
you pick up the slack. And you’re just missing some smoldering he and some ugly weather right now. It’s dusty and Nikki outside. So yes, that.

Ryan Wiggins 2:59
I mean, I like a dry heat over this humid weather here.

Paige C. Clark 3:03
Yeah, I do too. I didn’t realize like how terrible it was until I just got back from Charlotte, North Carolina. And my like, I walked outside. My whole family lives on the East Coast. And I texted the like, family group text. And I was like, how do people wear glasses out here? Like seeing glasses? Like, how do you wear glasses? And they’re like, you don’t you wear a hat or you wear contacts? Like, right? Exactly. Like I would open the car door and like it’s I couldn’t see anything. It was absolutely ridiculous. It was insane. And I’m like, Yes. I like the South. I like my sister lives in North Carolina. My mom lives in Georgia. I have friends who live in Florida. And I’m like, Yes, but bugs and humidity. If you guys didn’t have the bugs and the humidity. I would be okay. I even lived in Texas for a while. Bugs and submitted the same issues. Yep. Bugs and humidity. That’s all I have to say. Anyways, so real it on back. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Ryan Wiggins 4:09
So dogs in a wife and dogs and a wife. No kids have no kids. No kids.

Paige C. Clark 4:14
He’s doing like a kid thing though. Kids.

Ryan Wiggins 4:17
So she was at youth camp with with our church. She got searched in the youth. That’s middle school to high school. I serve in children’s church, which is newborn to elementary school. Gotcha. I’m actually going to children’s camp next week, Tuesday to Friday, which is you know, always interesting kids. Our kids are funny. So yeah, but for work work, like my paying job. I work at a company called building great sales teams. We just changed the name and our whole goal is to build better sales teams for companies and we have a podcast called building great sales teams. I recently started a A new a new offshoot of that. It’s called your podcast partner. So building great podcast is what I like to call it. And I’m kind of heading that up myself, but it’s still an offshoot of what we do everything here.

Paige C. Clark 5:14
Yeah. Sounds fun. How long have you been doing that?

Ryan Wiggins 5:18
podcasting or the building of this new

Paige C. Clark 5:22
working in this business?

Ryan Wiggins 5:25
Oh, I’m so. So with sales teams. I started with this company in 2017. Okay, so we were we sold at&t, we sold solar, we sold security, we sold everything we were like companies would come seek us out to sell their product for them. I was doing that in 2017, doing back in some marketing stuff for that. And then as far as the podcasting, we started the BGS T podcast in January of last year. So since we did that for a year, we’re at 200 Plus episodes, releasing three a day.

Paige C. Clark 6:00
Three week, three weeks still.

Ryan Wiggins 6:03
Yes, it is. It is it is wild. Yeah. And then so since we had all of our systems dialed in, we had our VA is doing some of the back end marketing stuff of that, like we can we can open this door up for a lot of people to start their podcast for marketing purposes, kind of tell them what, what the benefits of having a podcast is and stuff. So we started that up in last month, actually, last month is when we started charging people.

Paige C. Clark 6:31
That’s exciting. That’s really exciting. And yeah, you’re you’re we are like cut from the same cloth because I am definitely a digital marketer by trade. I’m a social media manager for a tech company. But also I am just I just started releasing, I just started. This is also the first time I’ve ever talking about it like publicly, I’m starting something called the IDEA Lab. And part of it is how to take your doing a zero to podcast strategy. So I feel you but that’s awesome.

Ryan Wiggins 7:02
Podcasts are important. People don’t understand the power of a podcast. Yeah, like it is crazy. The only reason why I started a podcast, I have a friend, his name is Dallin. He has a podcast. We were talking podcast, right. But he has a podcast. And the reason why we started was because I didn’t have a job. He hated his job. And so we were like, Hey, let’s just let’s talk every week, right? Like, yeah, let’s have a conversation about whatever is going on with our lives. And so we settled on music because we both do music. I do rap. He doesn’t anymore. So we just every week, whatever releases that intrigued us, we would talk about it on the show. Sometimes we were talking about movies, like I think the last Jedi just came out. Okay, we’re doing it. And I absolutely hate that movie. I love Star Wars. The Last Jedi. Okay, so we have that conversation. It was good. So that’s why I started podcasting. And I think that, that gave me a lot of the skills that I have today. Being in front of a camera, being able to just talk about whatever and yeah, leveraging that into business, I guess.

Paige C. Clark 8:10
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think too. Like, I mean, I don’t know if I just have the personality for it. But I’m like, is fun. Like, I absolutely love doing this talking to strangers on the internet, but in a podcast form. And it’s

Ryan Wiggins 8:23
it’s a little different because you can’t get catfished Well, I mean, with AI now, right? You can’t really get catfished on a video call.

Paige C. Clark 8:31
Yeah, very true. Very true. So what kind of got you started in the role that you’re currently at? Like, how did you kind of start with that company?

Ryan Wiggins 8:42
So I got fired from I got I got let go. Yeah, let’s go because they were doing a reworking. I was working at a college here in San Antonio. And they were doing a reworking of our department.

Paige C. Clark 8:58
It’s what they what they suddenly when this happens?

Ryan Wiggins 9:02
Yeah, absolutely love it. And then so Craigslist, I was like, alright, you know what Craigslist has some decent jobs mainly as a joke. And I had nothing else going for me except for the podcast. And I was doing some temp work here and there. But on Craigslist, I was like, Okay, let me just apply for this job. It was for an office administrator for this company. So I, I got hired. I was with the company for a year and a half. They let me go because they ran out of money. So I was doing real estate stuff. They called me back and they were like, Hey, can you be our marketing manager? I was like, Yeah, I got nothing else going on right now. So I came back and then COVID happened. So they let me go. And then yeah, they called me back. The CEO of the company, his name is Doug Mitchell. He called me back because we had set up an interview, but he meant to cancel it the day of so I ended up just showing up Anyway, and I Okay. I truly believe that that was God, I really do. I didn’t showing up anyway. And he was like, Hey, I canceled your interview. But hey, let’s just let’s just talk for a second. So I was like, Alright, cool. Like, I can talk. I don’t have anything else to do. I had just so I was with this company that I don’t want to say the name of because I have I have a little bit of bad blood with them right now. Fair enough. So there’s a whole nother story we could get into but so I was like, I’m trying to leave that job. God hasn’t released me to leave yet. He has released me to like apply places, but he hasn’t released me to leave. And that’s, that’s super big on me. Like I 100% believe that. If you are going through your ventures in work, even if you hate your job, like absolutely hate your job, you need to be prayerful, because you might be in that position for a reason. And if you’re in that position for a reason you don’t want to leave without fulfilling that purpose that God has you there for is kind of how I see it. So I was released to go apply for other jobs. And this one was just like, perfect, because like, I know the company, they’re looking for what I’m doing now. So God, if there’s any, if if it is your will, let me leave this position and let it be your Well, let it be your will write Jesus in the garden. Right. That’s, that’s how I approached it. Jesus in the garden. So we got into conversations, he was like, Man, I am so glad that, you know, we had we got a chance to talk. Because we weren’t close. When I was working here prior like, he lives in San Antonio, I was in San Antonio, but the company was in Corpus Houston. Like we were all over the place. So I hadn’t most FaceTime with him. But we weren’t like close, close, you know, CEO, lower level employee. So he was like, I’m super glad that we had a chance to talk. And the only reason why I went back was he changed his core values instead of work hard, play hard. It became work hard, pray hard. So it’s like, Oh, that’s interesting. So I might want to, I want to see what that’s about. Yeah. So we had a conversation. He was like, Hey, I’m going to Corpus I need someone to shoot content for me. Can you come with me to Corpus and then we’ll see how that goes. And we’ll turn that into like a full time position of you just kind of being my roadie. And we go, we travel, we shoot content. And I was like, Yeah, I mean, that’ll be interesting. I’ll pray about it. I’ll talk to my wife and see see what it is. And you know, the rest is history. I signed on we went to Corpus shot some some videos, we went to Dallas, Phoenix, Utah, like we were, we’d been all over the place. So it’s been it’s

Paige C. Clark 12:47
so much fun. And like really cool, kind of how that kind of fell into place. I’m glad you called yourself a roadie to and not just like a fan girl or something. Like, you should just take his name, like, you know how people like take the names like Swifties. Like, do that, like, just do that for your title and be like, I propose myself to have a new title. And this is what it is.

Ryan Wiggins 13:12
That would be interesting. It’s really funny. Like, I don’t know, if you’ve, like, have you? Have you been in a position where you’re like, following around a famous person, I put air quotes yada and see famous person.

Paige C. Clark 13:23
I mean, not like, yeah, like I have done that role, but not for like someone who’s like, famous or popular or anything. Yeah.

Ryan Wiggins 13:33
Doug is Doug is a very popular guy in his, in his circles, like, I won’t say like, Oh, if you look them up right now, he has a follow up. No, it’s not that. But in his circles, he’s like, very helpful. He adds value everywhere he goes, gotcha is a very popular guy. So like, in San Antonio, we went to a couple of events, and everybody’s like, Yo, is Doug Mitchell. They came it’s like, Can I get a picture with you? And I’m just like, Alright, here we go. This is Joe’s, I guess.

Paige C. Clark 14:03
Other Pete Yeah, it is kind of weird. I didn’t know what you mean, though. I’ve been around those kinds of people who are like these are just like normal people to me. And then to like other people, they’re like, oh,

Ryan Wiggins 14:14
ever it’s quite funny.

Paige C. Clark 14:16
I hear I’m gonna be like, Googling him. But you could be like the Dougie is or something like that. Right? Like he’s Wow, he’s the

Ryan Wiggins 14:27
dugout

Paige C. Clark 14:31
that’s the way you should he would love

Ryan Wiggins 14:32
that right? He would. He would absolutely love that. Oh, yeah. It’s me and my dugout Yeah. I’m not bringing that up to him. This is this episode and like, that’s the only time he’ll ever so what

Paige C. Clark 14:45
you’re telling me here is I should just email and this episode

Ryan Wiggins 14:49
or No, honestly, once it comes out, or if I get the back end stuff, we have a team of bas who are going to chop it up and put stuff out there so he will definitely be like, Okay, this needs to go out. Yes,

Paige C. Clark 15:00
absolutely, absolutely. So when talking about like your faith, you’ve talked a little bit about, like, having God’s like leading in terms of like leading, leaving and starting like job searches. Where did that kind of come from? And like, to anyone listening who might find themselves in a hard work position, like what would you say to them?

Ryan Wiggins 15:28
Okay, so I see. So this is the story about the job. I was actually okay. Yeah, it’s funny how that led into it. So I had just, yeah. So I had just gotten married last year, two years ago now, coming up with two years. And since Thank you, so I was doing consulting work for a couple of real estate companies. And the job was done, right. So I didn’t have any income until I found like my next gig, and my mother in law passed away. My aunt passed away. And my wife owns a business so like, she’s one of those if you don’t work, you don’t get paid time, right visuals, like she’s an entrepreneur, but it’s it’s very much a hands on job. She does softball coaching. Yeah. So I was like, Well, God, you know that we need money. bills don’t stop. So, like, what’s up? And so, I applied for a job at this company. And I got, I got an interview the very same day and I was like, Okay, guys, this shoe and I got an okay, so I went, I had the interview, talk to the guy, it was, it was great. And it was fine. I started my first day and I found out that he had nothing like as far as SOPs or policies in place for his staff, and we were a staffing company, which is really funny when you think about it. Yeah. So I was like, okay, cool. God, is this why I’m here because I have experienced in this, you know, that that works. guy, he was a he, he professed to be a Christian. And so in all of his offices, he had three that I was privy to one in Houston, one in Austin, one in San Antonio. And in all the offices the main thing was he needed worship music playing because worship music changes your, your, your outlook on life, right? Like even if you don’t believe in Christianity, you listen to worship, music, being positive, encouraging Caleb’s stuff. Okay, it changes your outlook. And it’s true, like faith cometh by hearing and you’re constantly hearing these positive things, especially these people who are looking for you know, construction jobs, who who just need temp work, or whatever the case might be. They come in with a spirit on them that is not not positive is the the nicest, cleanest way I can say it. They don’t have a positive spirit on them. And so I was like, This is awesome. And then, quickly, I found out that this this, I was there for a time, I was there for a few people, I was able to share the gospel with a couple of people lead them to Christ in that position. But I absolutely hated that job from Week Two on it was it was the absolute worst job I’ve ever had the displeasure of being at. And I stayed as long as I did, because I knew God was telling me know your stay like you don’t have a you don’t have a choice. And that kind of goes back to my my Jesus in the garden. That’s why I started saying that, because every day from work, it was a seven hour not seven. Wow, I had to be up at seven. So I can be there by eight. Because it was an hour long drive like alright, had to be up at six so I can get on the road at seven get there by eight. Right? And so that whole entire hour, all I did was pray. I was like, God, if I can just turn around right now. Like right now I will do it. you direct me to where I need to go. But if this is the job you want me to be at right now. Yeah, I’ll be there. And so that was the job he wanted me to be at and my prayer life had never been better than that. Three months that I was there enough. So that’s that’s where it all stemmed from is because like even if I decided to quit, like my mom, my wife, my brother, they’re like, Hey, man, you you don’t you don’t deserve that you don’t need a job. God will provide all your needs record news versus glory that all this Christianese that they were spouting at me, but I knew like if God is telling me to be here, there’s a reason right? There’s reasons why I’m here. Even if it’s for season, I need to be here. Because they’re right like I’ve never missed a bill even when finances are not there. I’ve never missed a bill. My whole tire life God has provided I’ve seen him provide for my mom she had cancer she was healed miraculously, I’ve seen him stop the weather for my brother. Like a lot of I’ve seen, I’ve seen that His Word is true. So like, yes, he would do that. But here’s the here’s the kicker, you need to be in his will. If you’re not in his will, then there’s no point in you questioning. Or there’s no point of view just moving without being in his will first, like you look at Jesus being tempted, and I’m sorry, I’m like rambling. But oh, I love it. Keep going. tempted. In the in the wilderness, Satan didn’t lie to him on anything. What he did was he spoken a miss truth, where he took stuff out of the word, but he did not lie to him. He said exactly what God said in those scriptures. And that’s why it’s important for you to know scripture for yourself, because the Bible did say everything that Satan said to Jesus, but there was context missing. And if you don’t know the context, that’s when you start to fall in August stuff. But yeah, that’s that’s kind of how I learned that is like, when you’re in a position where you absolutely hate it. The boss is trying to get you the CEO, he’s trying to fire fire you but he can’t because he has no grounds. Then you you, you learn quickly, like Okay, God, you want me here for some reason, and I don’t know what it is, but I’m gonna stick it out because I absolutely hate this.

Paige C. Clark 21:22
Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, like, there might be like this misunderstanding that, like, Christians have to like, where they were.

Ryan Wiggins 21:32
Right. Oh, 100%. You don’t have to like where you work?

Paige C. Clark 21:36
No, no, you don’t. And also, like, it doesn’t like, It’s okay as a Christian and Christ follower to like, call out toxic, toxic situations. And you’re kind of do that. Yeah. And be okay with like, leaving that situation and like, saying, like, hey, this workplace was bad. Like, that is an okay thing to do for whoever’s listening, who needs to hear that, like, it is an okay thing to say, like, you know what, like, this is not one good for me, good for my spirit, good for my health, good for my mental health. Good. Whatever the reason is, I’m just like, leaning on God through that, because then he will ultimately sustain you throughout that season. And like you said, like, I mean, Ryan even said, like, there were people there that you were supposed to be there for. But also, I don’t know if you noticed this, but you said your prayer life had never been better. Right? Right. But like, but it’s like, there’s like, multiple reasons why God can have you in that situation. To just draw you nearer and closer to him.

Ryan Wiggins 22:47
Yeah, I, yes. It had never been better. And I, I would love for it to be the same way as it was now. Or as it was then. But I mean, it’s a little bit less, but that’s because I’m busy doing the work. It’s not a Yeah, rested, me and I will sustain you is more of like, Hey, I given you something to do now. So you got to do it. But ya know, 100% I do believe that I was there for some people I can, I can point to those people and be like, Hey, I impacted their lives in this manner from being there. But yes, it 100% Don’t stay. So unless God is telling you to. And be very clear, don’t stay in a position where you’re where you’re just ingesting this toxicity all the time. It’s not Yeah, it doesn’t help you with anything. It’s, it’s possibly the worst thing that you can do as a Christian, like you’re supposed to catch your care. And if you’re constantly holding on to care or adding more care to yourself, then you’re not really following what Christ is telling you to do.

Paige C. Clark 23:50
Yeah, so yeah, for sure. I was in a situation about a year and a half ago, at a job where I was like, in tears almost every single day. And like, if you know me, I am not a crier. Like I like I do not cry. I have cried at one movie my entire life. And you know, it was also oh my gosh, is shameful it is. Okay. It’s so embarrassing, but like, also you have to like look at the context of my life. And like when I saw this movie, so it was Nicholas Sparks last song.

Ryan Wiggins 24:26
Oh, my. Okay, we can continue with

Paige C. Clark 24:29
that. No, we’re not going to because I have to justify this. So it came out when I was in high school. And the story is about a divorced parent, like divorced couple, and there was the daughter taking care of her. Like younger brother, and one of the parents is dying from cancer. Guess what was happening in my life. I was taking care of my little brother and my mom had cancer and my dad left like It was just a justify this my life sobbing in the theater at Miley Cyrus’s terrible performance anyways, I’m not a crier. And so in this season of my life, I was like, just so broken down and like I, my husband, I was yielding to my husband in that in the decision to leave my job. And I like had a crystal clear from Jesus like, but also like, you know, as a married couple, like I can’t just go off and like, you know, write I do something. And so I was yielding to my husband and I mean, hills Hill said to this to this day that he was also distracted by other things that, you know, weren’t from God in that season. But there was just this absolute, like desperation of meeting God in that moment. And the funny thing is, is like, my trust, and the peace that God gives us, has never been so impactful than it was in that season. And it was such a beautiful thing. And also, like, kind of funny, because I was like, Yeah, I’m gonna quit my job. My husband’s like, what are you gonna do tomorrow? I was like, I don’t know. I don’t know if God like God’s gonna tell me what to do. And, and he goes, Well, what is it? What is he telling you to do? I’m like, I don’t know. I’m gonna find out tomorrow. And if he doesn’t tell me tomorrow, this gonna tell me the next

Ryan Wiggins 26:30
day like, right, right. Like you can’t really,

Paige C. Clark 26:34
really nonchalant about it. But it was a really like, refining season. Do I want to go back to that season? Absolutely not.

Ryan Wiggins 26:43
Oh, yeah. Yeah, nobody wants to go back to the place that God brought them out of like, nobody. Nobody wants to go back there like 100%. Like, long story short with that job. The reason why I knew for a fact like I was done was because the CEO decided to have my coworker who technically was below me call me Sunday night, Sunday night at 8pm. And told me not to come in the morning. So, so I was like, Yeah, okay, God. Thank you. Like, that’s it. Thank you. And then I had a week to do all this stuff for my aunt’s funeral. Yeah, it was. I mean, it was it was perfect timing to from leaving this job to going to the job I’m currently at now. So it was it was perfect timing. I absolutely loved it.

Paige C. Clark 27:35
Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like, I think, and this might be like, so going off subject. But when we’re confronted by people who are hurting us in that situation, I feel like there is like this default to like, Oh, you have to love everyone. Like there’s like that default. Right? But like, that’s like,

Ryan Wiggins 28:00
Yeah, but what does love actually look like? Do you know what love is before you just throw that out there? Like there’s there’s studies on what love is like biblical love, and biblical love is not letting people run over you. Yeah. And like that is that is super important.

Paige C. Clark 28:14
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s like also okay to rejoice and righteous justice. Yes, I mean, things like that happen. I mean, I’m not like super proud of it. But also, it was like, a super sweet moment, pretty much like you say, you got restructured, my position got eliminated at this one. At this one company. When I was the only person doing this job. I was like, the Social Media Manager. And they’re like, No, we’re like, we don’t need a social media manager anymore. But then they hired another social media manager, just really fun.

Ryan Wiggins 28:52
And anybody who’s a business owner listening to this, and like, usually small business owners, do not hire a social media manager to do anything other than social media management. Because I think a lot of times why people fire and hire quickly for social media managers, is because they don’t understand that social media managers are not the catch. All right, like for computers, and

Paige C. Clark 29:17
so I had been working with this company for three years. And the person that came in did not like me, like had like, a personal thing against me. And and yeah, and but like afterwards, like, he’d be like, six months after that. And I had like, called it I was like, this person’s toxic this person is like, not healthy and reflective of the company culture, like nothing. No one believed me. No one heard from me. And then I found out I’m not the only one who’s like the canary in the coal mine about this woman. And then she got fired. And I was like, yeah, like that’s the justice. And it’s okay to have that sweet justice moment because I’m like, you know, God’s still led me through everything and it was

Ryan Wiggins 29:58
my boss my battle and I have to do either. That’s awesome.

Paige C. Clark 30:01
Yes, they have to be there for the fallout either.

Ryan Wiggins 30:04
Yeah, look at that. Look at God.

Paige C. Clark 30:07
Sure enough, I posted back to your social media thing I posted on LinkedIn the other day because I kept seeing these like job posts for people who like want social media managers, but that’s not what they really wanted. What they wanted was content creators, like your social media manager should not be on your tick tock like you.

Ryan Wiggins 30:26
Right? Right. If that is the case, you need to you need to clearly state that like you do want to, you want a content creator. And then a social media manager is going to take whoever created that content and then make it look good, make it sound good, have all the copy, they’re supposed to be in front of it, creating the

Paige C. Clark 30:42
can be but also like, that is not a social media managers job is so Exactly. Up and beyond that. Yeah.

Ryan Wiggins 30:51
100% 100%

Paige C. Clark 30:52
We’re besties now.

Ryan Wiggins 30:56
So funny thing like I have, I have another friend who does cheat consults on social media, management and all that good stuff and marketing, social media marketing. And it’s the same thing. Anybody who has done social media management. Anybody who has done social media management understands that it’s just the people who have never done it. Yeah, they just don’t get like, there is there’s, it’s different than what you expect. Like, yeah, it’s not a you post this thing that’s on trend, and you’re just gonna go viral. And like, yeah, you save the day. That’s not how it works. It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of planning, and it’s a lot of look like you sometimes hit the nail on the head, and sometimes you just don’t, that’s why not every Windies snap back on Twitter, or on x now this viral because it’s it’s not always going to happen for you.

Paige C. Clark 31:45
Okay, so are you on? Are you on threads? Aye.

Ryan Wiggins 31:49
Aye, I made threads. Okay, I made the threads.

Paige C. Clark 31:51
Okay. Also, it’s weird to say here that like plural, I’ve never heard anyone say it like out loud in a plural form. And like it’s so cringy. Okay, the sleeper on threads right now is the American Eagle account? I’m really Yes. Like, it is amazing. I like the clothing brand. If you’re listening to this, and you don’t follow American eagle on threads, go and follow them, especially if you’re a marketer, because it is absolutely downright hilarious. And it brings me so much joy. I might have to I might have to do like, for example, they typed like, like, ah with a bunch of ages. And then they’re like, sub tweet there, their sub thread on that was just checking the character count. It’s 500 for those who are asking

Ryan Wiggins 32:51
less, no 100%. So Oh, my goodness, like, what people need to understand about marketing and we just turned into a Marketing Show. happens, you need to be every time there’s something new, you absolutely need to be on it. You absolutely need to be on it. And you need to be the first one that does anything like you need to break the system. Because once you break the system, now you can be like, Oh, I know everything and people are gonna go to you and you’re gonna be the first one so even if someone does it better than you nobody cares about who did it next they care about who did it first or who dat loudest so like Yes, do it first do it loud.

Paige C. Clark 33:29
Yeah, so they’re like Like, they’re I’m looking at their threads account right now and their most recent post I guess is what is the max number of vacation IG stories per day before you meet them? Like absolutely hilarious and then it’s also like, oh, like there’s like this wolf and it says TGIF like Oh yeah, it’s just funny crap on there like I absolutely love it. Anyways, there’s the aside if you want a really fun like I appreciate Wendy’s and what they did yeah, like look out American Eagle. Like they’re they’re up and coming just when these threads Yeah, they ever threads.

Ryan Wiggins 34:12
Oh, I literally made it because my boss was like, hey, we need to be on threads and I have no idea how to work threads like I love Twitter. Twitter’s my my or x x is my go to rally. Yes. That’s the one social media that no matter what, I’m going to check in on there just because I get all my news from there really fast. Okay, fair enough. Facebook I have I have way too many people on my Facebook that I don’t really know. Okay. And that’s because Doug is famous and he keeps tagging me and stuff. So they come in they I’m like dude, like, I’ve met you one time we’re not friends. What I

Paige C. Clark 34:50
did is I converted my personal profile or my personal profile to a never professional profile or whatever. So people just follow me now instead of adding me as a friend

Ryan Wiggins 35:03
that probably won’t people follow me like that.

Unknown Speaker 35:07
Get outta here. It’s like

Ryan Wiggins 35:09
all these crypto dudes. So we’re in this it is so weird. It’s called apex and or he’s in this group, I’m not I just get to, I just get the benefit. And it’s very wealthy individuals in this group, very wealthy individuals. And they, the lower ring of that are being taught to find out who the people are around the people that you want to work with, and connect with them. So that way, you can have an easy in. So it’s a lot of people connecting with me. So if I haven’t shaken your hand, if I haven’t had dinner with you, if I if I don’t know you from Adam, like do not add me as a friend on Facebook, because I will not respond to it. Even people at my church if I have not served with them, or I haven’t been at a breakfast or a fellowship with them. Do not add me because I will not add you. It’s just it’s just real. I’m not going to like, give up my mental space for that if we don’t have a actual connection in any kind of way, which is kind of true or productive to me, but

Paige C. Clark 36:18
no. Well, I mean, like, and you also have like your I went to when I was in Charlotte, I was I heard Lisa Turkers speak and she goes, there’s a difference between privacy and secrecy. Like I’ve never heard, like, I know it, but like, I’ve never heard someone put it so succinctly. And I was like, yeah, like, people will want especially in ministry and like, stuff like that people want privacy around these things. Now, when it goes into secrecy, like that’s when you’re, you know, playing with the devil there. But privacy is, you know, something to be held dear. Right? Like, and

Ryan Wiggins 36:58
Jesus had 12 Friends, right. He had a multitude of followers. He fed 5000 men and their children who followed him to a mountain. He’d talked to them all, he was very open, but really, he had 12 friends,

Paige C. Clark 37:13
and even within those 12 He,

Ryan Wiggins 37:17
yeah, he’s three. Yeah, it was about three. He had his closest, I was gonna say their names, but I was gonna butcher that. I know. Peter was one. Peter, James and John, I think it was. But yeah, it wasn’t like that. Yeah, there’s there’s several of them. But yeah, those are the ones who he took to the garden with him. That’s it like you you need to have that you need to be able to break away and have those confidants that you can be like, hey, like, there’s there’s levels to our relationships. There’s levels to all of it. And yeah, there are people who I I shake a hand with because we’re at this conference that has 1000 people, and I don’t see you ever again. Don’t add me on Facebook, please.

Paige C. Clark 37:59
Yeah, I’m on Twitter instead. Or x.

Ryan Wiggins 38:03
You can follow me on x. I retweet some some funny stuff. Sometimes. I’ve been on there and

Paige C. Clark 38:09
react.

Ryan Wiggins 38:10
React. What is it now as it says,

Paige C. Clark 38:13
I record it. It’s either like it’s our E X E S. and like that’s either relaxes or like Rex’s, which just makes me think of like, it’s like a T Rex. Like the new logo should just be like a T Rex anyways,

Ryan Wiggins 38:29
that would work. I would, I would love that actually.

Paige C. Clark 38:32
Just like big dinosaur stampede. Anyways, let’s go back though, if you did say something, and I kind of want to go back to it, which was kind of like working with like the proximity and like intimacy and privacy within your like co workers and like your colleagues, and how does that look for you? In terms of like, you’re like, Yeah, I have like lead people to Jesus. And I’m like, Oh, wow. Like, that’s like a significant thing. Like, from being at work. So could you talk a little bit about that?

Ryan Wiggins 39:04
Yeah. So I’ve been fortunate enough to be in very small companies who have very intimate settings, right. Right now, in our office, there’s, there’s two people and if this was like a mobile camera, I would show you, but my desk is right next to my boss’s desk, like literally, we can high five each other if we wanted to in the middle of the day, and it’d be Yeah, it’d be fine. And that’s, that’s cool. The other offices, it was he professed to be a Christian, right? He professed to be a Christian. So that wasn’t an issue in that, in that sense. And then the college job, I actually got it from someone who was in our church, and she had watched me grow up and she was like, Hey, I think you’d be a great fit in our in our, in our company. So I’ve been fortunate in that in that instance. It’s but I also think that it’s okay to build relationships outside of the workplace. Right? I would hate to be somewhere where I can’t talk on a human level with my co workers. Like, even if it’s like, Hey, let’s go get coffee after work, what are you doing? Oh, you got nothing going on, I got nothing going on, let’s go hang out because like, you, you should want to have relationships with the people you do life with. And yes, it’s work, but you’re still doing some form of your life, you’re doing the majority of your life with these people. So I tried to, I try to be open and willing to grow relationships with the people I work with. And that’s kind of how I’ve been able to maneuver in that, in that instance, outside of like, all of them profess to be Christians, and I’ve just been fortunate to deal with that.

Paige C. Clark 40:48
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Now, do you have any like stories of like, well, actually, you already told one, which was the icky boss. But just like any situations, kind of above and beyond that, were like, being a Christian was hard. Oh.

Ryan Wiggins 41:13
Oh, um, I wouldn’t say it’s, it’s hard at all. So I grew up in the things of God, like, since I was born. Like, when we were in Germany, my mom was the children’s minister. So anytime we had any kind of issue, she would would have a scripture for it. Okay. And that’s just kind of how I grew up. So it was never hard. Have I decided to not follow that? Yes. And that was that was before my working life. Just because when you’re young, like, I’m only 28. Now. I had to check this morning, we had a meeting, and I forgot my age. So I’m 28. Now, right, right. But when I first started working, I guess I guess it wasn’t hard to be a Christian. What I was extremely literal about what Christianity is, right. And I had told someone like you’re not a Christian, and I’m not a Christian. Because to be a Christian means to be Christ, like, and neither one of us are acting like Christ. And that was that was, I’m not going to get into that story. But that’s what I said, I said to this particular person, and, and she went off on me like, she went off on me. And I was like, Hold on, why are you going off on me like this, this proves right now, you’re not a Christian. I’m not a Christian based off of X, Y, and Z. We’re just not Christians. And that’s okay. You can be a believer all day long, but you’re not a Christian. And so like, I think, what, what people can take from that is, you should understand how Jesus is like, study who Jesus was. And study, Paul, those two, those two people. And I say that because Jesus ate with sinners, but he didn’t let centers influence who he was. And Paul said, I’ve become all things to all men that way, I may win a few. So I personally have not had to deal with Christianity being hard. But I have had to deal with fair, cynical kind of thought processes. So I guess the hard part is not leaning into those first critical thought processes when you know a lot. Like when you’ve done this for a while, when you went to a school and graduated gave the class charge, like all that stuff, like once you, once you get to that point, don’t let that become your whole entire personality to where you can’t have a normal conversation with someone who might actually need some kind of real, real life experience real life conversation. One of my favorite lines that I like to tell the people that I mentee is or a mentor is be you in real time. And if if you are struggling with someone something like it’s okay to have that struggle, don’t tell everybody that right? That’s, that’s where the privacy comes in. Right? Don’t tell everybody that have your confidence, have your small core group that are going to actually pray for you 100% I believe that, but you got to be real about it. God can’t do anything with you being fake, he already knows. So just be honest about it, be real about it. And that’s how things get better.

Paige C. Clark 44:34
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think too, like, there’s this tendency, like after having all these conversations on this podcast and whatnot. I have just like, I have learned how much I need to really be like, putting on the armor of God every day when I go to work, especially in the ability to feel equipped to go into the hard conversations to go into the heart situations and you know, all of that, and then you’re also it’s like yes and and then it’s that humility check that ego check that we need to have with our within ourselves so that we don’t become, you know

Ryan Wiggins 45:19
Westboro Baptist Church. You don’t want to be Westboro Baptist Church. Like that’s real. Like you don’t want to you don’t want to become that. And that I think, if I had to say there’s a part of Christianity, that’s hard. I think for me, that’s the hardest part is because like I said, I’ve, I’ve been in this for a really long time, I’ve, I’ve decided not to follow it, like I made the legitimate decision not to follow it. And I’ve made the legitimate decision to follow it. Like I’ve seen all aspects of it. And at the end of the day, I can say like, it’s not hard. But be be mindful of how you practice. Be mindful of that. 100%

Paige C. Clark 46:00
Yeah, well, I appreciate your vulnerability and honest honesty in that situation. Because I think like, that is, that is something that like, I might not personally struggle with, but like others out there might struggle with and hear that and also, like, the people listening to this, I just want them to understand whether or not they know, they know Jesus is just like, we’re not perfect. We don’t have it all together. Always like that is definitely not the case with me. And from what you’re saying to like, not the case with you have like I said,

Ryan Wiggins 46:35
this morning, when I was driving to the office, like, easy, I was like, man, where are you driving? You look crazy. Your tires about to blow I can smell it. Like I was just going off on this dude. And he was just, you know, trying to get to a tire shop I saw. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 46:51
But yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And like and just like checking yourself, I think like, one of the the beauties of being a Christian and knowing Christ is just that daily, and moment by moment, awareness of like, God’s presence and his voice in our life. And like, I think it just comes out of like, practice and discipline at the end of the day.

Ryan Wiggins 47:15
100% Yeah, it was an agreement.

Paige C. Clark 47:18
So how would you say like, is like, what does your faith practice look like? Other than just like living it out? In kind of like a practical sense. You say, you know, you work with the children’s ministry and all of that, what does that kind of look like, you know, day to day, week to week for you.

Ryan Wiggins 47:39
So I don’t just work with the children’s ministry. And it’s really funny, I guess the, the main advice that I want to give is, find a local assembly and be a part of that, right. That’s how you get those relationships to where you can have those confidants who are like Bible believing Bible, teaching friends who can, like build you up in the way that should go, right? You don’t want to have friends who are not following the same path that you are because one of two things can happen. Either you’re going to influence them or they’re going to influence you. And it’s a lot easier to influence someone outside of Christ than it is to influence someone into Christ. So that’s one find a good church home. But because of that, I’ve been at this church home since 2005. So it’s kind of 120 years. Yeah, that’s crazy. And I started, I started serving at that church in 2008, right, I think I was God, how old was I was in eighth grade. So I started serving in eighth grade. And that was from pulling weeds. beautification, keeping the house cleaning up after people. So I guess like, day to day, week to week. I’m pretty much always at the church, not so much now, just because we travel so much for work and my wife spend time with me sometimes, like she liked me a little bit. But, um, yeah, so, this this Saturday, we have rehearsals for our back to school rally next week. from Tuesday through Friday, I’m going to be in mo Ranch, Texas, with the children’s church when I get back from that I’m serving that Sunday in the children’s church. And then we’re setting up classes because we hold ministry classes at our church. So I’m setting up classes after service. On a Sunday I’m there from 7am to about 5pm On Thursdays I’m there 545 Until about 11 So I mean, it’s it’s just kind of what I do at this point. It’s just how I live my life.

Paige C. Clark 49:34
How do you find either like the balance or the rhythm in doing that and like, like me, I’m just like, I want to spend all the time with my hobby like that’s me. But like cuddling my dogs and like binging Netflix like that is my default. How do you kind of find the balance of like your, I guess desires or intentions and hobbies with like serving so Not much.

Ryan Wiggins 50:00
So I all my friends I serve with, right? So I, you really cannot be my friend if I have not served with you because it’s really it’s true. You need to decompress even when you’re you’re dealing with people at church because I mean church is a hospital right? Like people, you, you’re there with sick people all day. So you got to figure out how to decompress. So for me, I still enjoy those things. I watch Netflix with my wife. I play video games a lot. I make music still. Yeah, and a lot of that is you find a way to make it work. Like when you’re at the church from seven to five, like you’re not always serving a service is not always going on. So you can step back, you can check out a YouTube video, go talk to someone who’s there. It’s just like, yeah, now and then, you know, when the next service is ready to go. It’s like, okay, cool. Next service is here. And a lot of a lot of it is hurry up and wait, because we’re there so early. So that set in place, or the guests who are coming. So yeah, I find I find ways to do that, by just kind of making time for it. If, if your thing is video games, get handheld games, I have a switch device. If it’s if it’s Netflix, get Netflix on your phone, there’s an array. I don’t know. I I mean, that’s, that’s basically it. I’ve been doing it for so long. So I just kind of, I’ve learned how to fit it in when I can. And I’ve learned that sometimes you got to you got to pony up and be an adult and do the work of the ministry. Like,

Paige C. Clark 51:38
what am what I’m also hearing from you that like you’re not saying but you’re kind of working around is like integrating your community, with your church, in your church with your community. Yeah, 100% 100 of like having your friend like serving alongside your friends. And you know, like, instead of, instead of meeting out and like going out and like grabbing some drinks or something like that, like you can go and like surf together and still have that same kind of communal.

Ryan Wiggins 52:07
I told my wife so so before we started dating, I was like, I’m not hanging out with you, like you can come to the church and serve with me, but I’m not going to hang out with you. If I have something going on at the church. I told him that straight up like, I’m, I’m not going to stop what I was already doing. Right? Because, you know, I kind of want to hang out with you a little bit. Like, I’m not gonna do that. That’s not what’s gonna happen. All of her friends who wanted to hang out with me, because I’m just a cool guy. I don’t know what it is. All of her friends. I told them the same thing. I was setting up tables, and I’m like, Hey, Ryan, I got a question for you. I was like, Okay, I got a table for you to sit down. Like, it’s, it’s always like that. Because again, if if I’m gonna sit here, and I’m gonna be honest about who God is to me and the the place that he holds in my life, then I have to show that I have to, I have to show that in everything that I’m doing. And yes, I can go out with friends go to a movie, go hang out at the house, do whatever, go to a football game. I mean, I travel for work. So I’m not at every service now. Right. But like, even still, like, I make time to take off work for four days. So I can be at a children’s camp, I make time to ask for my lunch break when we’re having the summer, the VBS summer program to go on my lunch break, hang out with the kids and be like, Hey, I’m still here, which you guys learn? Are you having a good time? I make time to do all of that even while at work. So yeah, I think it’s just you find out the balance for yourself and you do that work? And then I guarantee once you start doing it, like it will grow it will increase when you make the conscious decision to do that.

Paige C. Clark 53:50
Yeah, yeah. And I feel that I think like there’s there’s the people who like don’t serve at all and then there’s like the people who do serve and and then I think there’s like this, like small segment to have like people who might like us to her serving as like, a way to run from their problems like

Ryan Wiggins 54:08
oh, yeah, no, like,

Paige C. Clark 54:10
there’s also that so I like not that you’ll always want to serve but like also just like, do a heart check of like doing this like why are you doing this? Like are you doing this to be obedient to God and like, what He has called in your life? Are you running away from an argument with your spouse? Oh, yeah.

Ryan Wiggins 54:29
Ministry is your is your household. 100 right. That is your first ministry. If you don’t know that, then you. You need to not serve and sit down and learn learn a couple of things before you jump into that because I agree 100% Like you don’t want to use you don’t want to use God as a way to escape something else. And I’m saying that as I know that sounds weird because most people turn to God during situations but I get what you’re saying. It should be a solution, not a not a crime. Ah, yeah, that should be a solution not a crutch, I think is yeah, like I said, or like

Paige C. Clark 55:03
an excuse. Or an excuse, right? Yeah, like, yeah, anyways. Yeah, well awesome. I’ve loved this conversation is definitely gone through almost all of my favorite things

Ryan Wiggins 55:18
did I miss? What did I miss? I like to talk about everything.

Paige C. Clark 55:22
My obsession with ice tea. Like we could talk about

Ryan Wiggins 55:25
ice tea was like no, no. Okay, good.

Paige C. Clark 55:31
Oh gosh, no.

Ryan Wiggins 55:32
Basic, right? No,

Paige C. Clark 55:34
it’s like, there’s so many like tannins in iced tea. It’s like are in Lipton tea. Okay, I had to admit this I drive like a half hour for good iced tea. One way one way so an hour round trip for good so then you

Ryan Wiggins 55:54
need to you need to get like a gallon or two so and then get like the 32 ounce.

Paige C. Clark 55:59
Oh, yeah, I get a big one. But so here’s the thing. It was China missed iced tea. And for the longest time they didn’t retail China miss it was only available for wholesale. But guess what? The lovely iced tea fairies came down and now they’re retailing China miss. So now I don’t have to drive an hour anymore. For iced tea.

Ryan Wiggins 56:21
You could have just ordered it online because it what I’m hearing

Paige C. Clark 56:24
No, I tried to they didn’t retail it like you couldn’t. They were like, like, unless you were like a wholesaler or like a restaurant or something. You couldn’t buy it.

Ryan Wiggins 56:33
You should have just like started a restaurant

Paige C. Clark 56:37
or the ice just for the ice. Now they retail it and so now you like I buy it online. But like now it’s like available for like a lowly peasants over here. See,

Ryan Wiggins 56:50
that was me in a red apple, Arizona. I’ve never had that. It’s it’s Arizona and apple juice is green tea and apple juice. It is phenomenal. That is phenomenal. And they did not sell that anywhere. Because so I lived in Washington and my obsession with tea came from Washington because there was like, okay, there was a corner store a chevron it was a chevron about a mile up the road. And so like in Washington, there’s nothing to do but go to the movies and get in trouble. And I got in trouble a lot. My escape from getting in trouble was going to Chevron getting an iced tea or a red apple, Arizona, and then getting back into trouble. So yeah, Arizona teas and all that good stuff was was my obsession for a minute and a half. Yeah, but yeah. Majority of it now.

Paige C. Clark 57:38
Here we go. I mean, we could have skipped over the whole Nicholas Sparks breakdown thing, but, but I’ll forgive you for that. Okay.

Ryan Wiggins 57:47
Please forgive me because I I’m sorry, you had to relive that atrocity of a movie.

Paige C. Clark 57:55
Like, the most dramatic thing in my life is probably because you saw that movie. That’s why I became so imprinted on me. Well, right, I love to finish off every episode, asking our guests What is one thing that our listeners can do to implement a faith building practice or discipline in their life?

Ryan Wiggins 58:18
So I already said you know, find a find a home church. That’s one to pray on your commute, because I know this is targeted towards Christians working nine to five, pray on your commute and start that day. Right. And, and pray when you’re headed home as well. I think a lot of people see prayer as just talking and not listening. But it’s supposed to be a conversation, right? Like, just like you would call your mom I call my mom. I’m making myself sound really sappy right now, but I call my mom every day after work. Yeah, just kind of, you know, see what she’s going with what she got going on and talk to her because I absolutely love my mom. But the same thing is with God like you can you can. I like to view prayer as like you putting the phone on speaker and when you’re before you get married or you’re like dating someone, you just want to be on the phone with them. You just like hearing them breathe and it’s really weird, but everybody does it. Yes. It’s the same thing in my head. Like when you’re when you’re praying. It’s like you set that phone on speaker and then it’s like, oh, I got something to say to you. Okay, I don’t got anything to say like this. Just sit here and watch whatever we’re watching on TV. And it’s like, Oh, hey, what are you watching? Oh, I’m watching this and it’s like, God will talk to you in those moments. And I think I think it’s super important to have that open open communication like when you can whenever you can. And I think the most people have that when they’re driving to and from work. Unless they got kids. They got to pick the kids up but even then you tell them to sit down, shut up and pray and there you go. Now you’re you’re good, too.

Paige C. Clark 59:57
So yeah, there you go. Awesome. Ryan Thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find you? Not on Facebook but anywhere else?

Ryan Wiggins 1:00:06
If you absolutely must follow me on Facebook, it’s Ryan, Elijah Wiggins on Facebook. For Instagram, it’s love X Ryan. And then on Twitter, it’s with love Ryan, I’m a rapper. So like love Ryan is kind of like my, my, my alias. And so like, love Ryan was not available everywhere, which kind of sucks. But as

Paige C. Clark 1:00:28
you go, the worst was when I married into like a basic last name and it Oh, my gosh, my maiden name is so cool. And I married into a Clark like I love my husband. I love the Clark family like is that but like my lot? My maiden name was Ferrari. Like it was your last name.

Ryan Wiggins 1:00:52
Okay, so like my wife’s maiden name is Ken to like so like, I love that because whenever whenever we were doing her, her marketing Yeah, I would tell her like you need to use Ken to like it’s like I can have you can have if I can hit bombs. You can too. It’s like it’s just super dumb. And then her dad runs a or he was a captain of ships that like fishing ships. So his his marketing was like if I can catch one you can too and I was like yes, that’s perfect. That’s amazing SEO and marketing. But Wiggins is not we’re just we’re basic so I get it I feel you.

Paige C. Clark 1:01:29
It’s the same with the Clark thank you so much Ryan for joining us and make sure you guys give him a follow on everywhere but Facebook, everywhere My face

Ryan Wiggins 1:01:39
is you have to

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Paige C. Clark 00:41
Hello, everyone; welcome to another episode of the nine-to-five faith podcast. I am here with one of my new friends Kemir Baker; how are you doing today?

Kemir Baker 00:53
I’m doing pretty well. I’m excited to be here with you.

Paige C. Clark 00:57
I’m so excited. And this has been like months in the making just because of life and schedules and all that stuff. So I’m so happy that we finally get to sit down. We get to have a good conversation, and we get to talk about all the things faith and work and all that good stuff. Yes. So tell us. Yeah, so tell us a little bit about yourself.

Kemir Baker 01:18
Well, my name, as you already said, is Kemir Baker. And about five years ago, I started a nonprofit called J intelligence networks. And for short, we’re J entails because that is a mouthful. And what we do is we provide educational programs, faith-based educational programs for emotional health, and healing, emotional healing as well. And being the founder and CEO. That’s what brought me here today because I can work a lot. And so I’ve learned some things in my own walk with God in terms of just discipline so that I’m making sure that I’m connecting with him in the midst of all that needs to get done. And I will say, as I made that statement, I was like, Well, tell me your story. It’s not that different. You’re a woman. And as a woman, that’s what we do. We get the job done. Yeah. And sometimes, in that process, we kind of overlook ourselves and overlook, digging deeper into our walk with God because we just don’t have time.

Paige C. Clark 02:17
Yeah. So I have so many questions kind of rolling through my head. So the first one is, when setting up your company, how did you it’s kind of, I guess, a little bit easier because it the product is a faith-based product. But how do you in terms of, like, company culture? As we always said, hire and fire to your values. You know, how do you keep Jesus and your Christian values at the forefront of your mind when you’re running your business?

Kemir Baker 02:56
Well, it actually is kind of interesting because there are certain things you’re not supposed to do by law in terms of how much you communicate God and things of that nature. And so, for myself, I realized that a lot of what we represent, we have to walk it. We can’t just say, Oh, we represent God in a new and fresh light. Like we have to make sure that we’re treating people with love, dignity, and respect. And those attributes when it comes out of how people at times don’t have that experience. They may have experiences where their bosses are over them; they’re being micromanaged. They’re not being built up. And so when we can come and present those practices, they know right away that we’re different, and they feel so like excited until then they just work harder because they feel believed in. Yeah, yeah. And so that’s been exciting to see because I’m reformed, my character was me, St. Jesus, if I didn’t put them in a saint, I do not believe the day to make that adjustment, and because not everyone can receive Christ in that way where it’s just in their face. And so, I had to learn how to adjust my presentation of him. So that he is not only still being seen but approachable.

Paige C. Clark 04:21
Seen but approachable. I am actually working on some writing right now. And I have, like, normal but sacred. And I feel like what you just said like seems but approachable is like the same exact like kind of falls into the same dichotomy of the two because yeah, like I think, I think that there’s this holiness, right, the reverence that we should have for God, but also like, Jesus for everyone who accepts Him.

Kemir Baker 04:51
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. We know in our journey, there were times when we weren’t ready to Hear him and wanted to draw closer to Him. And so then it becomes who are we to be the complete opposite when he met us where we were at, and was able to have that conversation with us and slowly bring us to that place where we’re like, Ditka left?

Paige C. Clark 05:19
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think to like that. Not only not that it waters down the gospel, but it helps people understand, like, kind of the context of Jesus and like how he works. I know it sounds really vague, but I’m thinking of, like, the chosen series, right? Like, I know, there’s like a lot of, like, the internal controversy of, like, the legitimacy of it. And I think like, you know, you can argue, you know, theology every day with it, that’s fine. You know, that’s not what I do. More power to those people who do. But I think that what it has done in a really great way is it has shown both the humanity and holiness of Jesus, which is a really beautiful thing to see.

Kemir Baker 06:18
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And when I watched the chosen, I saw a couple of episodes. Because what they do is fill in the gaps of the possibility of what that culture was like. What could have been? And when I watched it, I was like, I never thought about it that way. I never thought about Matthew doing X, Y, and Z and someone being exiled from their family. I was like, I, I never promised that because when you read it, you read it so quickly, sometimes, right? They’ll slow down and say, Well, wait a minute, how did that decision impact other people around them? I feel like the chosen does a good job of showing what that impact looks like.

Paige C. Clark 06:58
Yeah, there’s a book that I like to read. It’s called What if it’s true? And have you read it?

Kemir Baker 07:04
I haven’t, but it sounds enticing. Oh,

Paige C. Clark 07:06
it’s so good. But it’s this guy who usually writes fiction. And it’s all it’s half memoir, half, half, like, historical nonfiction, but, but it’s like, what he does is he applies his skills as a fiction writer on top of the Bible, and like the stories of Jesus. And so he does it in book form. The same thing that I see done in the chosen is like adding a lot of context to two different stories like, you know, the birth of Jesus while like, we just know, like, hey, Mary didn’t have room at the end. So she gave birth in a staple. Well, he adds context around him, like, it’s freezing cold. Mary is in pain like there are animals pooping right next to her, like, in a barn. Yes. So he just adds, like, a different context to it. So yeah, those things like that. I always recommend those to people because as a good starting point, especially when they’re getting to know the Bible.

Kemir Baker 08:19
Yeah, that totally makes sense because it hits your heart in a different way.

Paige C. Clark 08:22
Mm-hmm. I think we’re able to see it. Mm-hmm. We’re just able to see it in a way that makes more sense if there’s a little tidbit about reading the Bible. So in what ways have you used your faith to kind of develop the policies around your work? So like, whether it is, you know, respecting the Sabbath? Or, you know, how you even pay your employees or dig into that for me?

Kemir Baker 09:05
Yeah, I think for me, our philosophy is integrity. That’s one of our pillars is integrity and showing God in a fresh light. And so, there have been many times we’re, you know, the flesh will come in, and you want to cut corners, and you want to not pay someone as much because you don’t have very much money. But after a while, you’re like, Okay, you know, that makes no sense. This person has worked really hard. They’ve demonstrated their value to us. Why do I want to cut something that they need? And so, those things are, I think, bring me back from the flesh like okay, well, God meets our needs if we give abundantly, and I will say that he does. And so that was something that I continue to learn, especially in the first couple years when we’re starting, just in terms of not being so tight-fisted with finances, being responsible, but allowing God to breathe through them and in the process impact people around. And again, as I said before, we really do work on us being a light. And you know, when they come in, they read our mission; they know what we’re about. And so that does add another layer of, okay, well, how are you going to engage with me if I know?

Paige C. Clark 10:34
this is represented? Right?

Kemir Baker 10:37
Yeah. And we know sometimes Christians get it bad. Because if you make one mistake, all Christians are terrible. Yeah. And so it does put us at a higher standard than most individuals, most companies because of that,

Paige C. Clark 10:51
yeah, I have been able to work for some Christian companies. And they, they like to say, you know, Christian companies should be the best-run businesses because they have that integrity level. But also, I think, in the way that I mean, business ethics even right, like you can go into down that rabbit hole if you want to have like, how you run your business is in an ethical way. And also, when it comes to things like, you know, acting against your mission or against your values, you know, we’re all human, that’s going to happen, but I think the response is so significantly different. And that’s what sets Christians apart from, you know, other people.

Kemir Baker 11:43
Yeah. Because I’ve learned generally, let me learn my lesson. So I don’t have to keep learning the same lesson. Yeah. And the guy will place you back in a circumstance to continue to purify. Yeah, I’m like, Well, let me get that the first time. My life a little bit easier, Hank, the pain away. In and then, after you’re done with the frustration, and you really ponder over, you’re like, wait a minute, this was self-induced because I knew better. But this was the route that I took. So I can’t get mad at God. I need to take responsibility for my actions.

Paige C. Clark 12:21
And then, one thing God has been teaching me, I’ve just started, like my own garden, in my backyard. And one thing that he really has been teaching me is what you were saying earlier about him providing. And one thing that I’m learning is, He will give you just enough. I feel like you have a story about that. And I want to hear it.

Kemir Baker 12:49
Yeah. I mean, you want abundance? Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that we were because nonprofits, of course, apply for grants. And, there was one grant that I applied for, and I was like, I put in for the max. I can’t wait because these are all the things that we need to get through. And I think that what we were awarded was a fraction. I think it was 1% of the request. And, I was like, okay, but on the flip side, that organization receives so many requests. Because there are not a lot of loopholes that you have to go through. And so then once you start thinking, I was like, wait a minute, we actually did really well to get a response. Yeah, we did well to get a response that quickly. And even though it was 1%, it could have been nothing. Right? And we used it, of course, but what a great they have gotten the abundance. Right. And so it is all God’s telling.

Paige C. Clark 14:01
me. Yeah. And I think just his provision, you know, I just think about one. I mean, it’s one of my favorite stories because, I mean, all the Bible stories where I’m like, I wouldn’t do that. And I’m like, Yeah, you would like that would definitely be you. But you know, when when the Israelites are in the desert, and God provides them with manna, and he says, don’t keep it like you have to trust me that we’re going to still provide and, you know, those who kept it, it went rotten and spoiled within you know, within a day, and it didn’t last and so just that that absolution of like God giving us just what we need when we need it. Yeah, when we ask.

Kemir Baker 14:51
Yes. And he’s right on time. God. Yeah, he’s not up before. No, you know, I’ll be less anxious if you want to do it before.

Paige C. Clark 15:06
Yes, that too. And also do not worry. There’s also that element, and that’s, that’s been I liked. This takes me all the way back to like my childhood when we would like to sing the verse thy lamp is a guide to my feet and a light into my path, or I’m butchering right now, but I heard a sermon one time, and it was like, it’s a lamp. It’s not a floodlight. It’s not the sunshine; it is a lamp. How far ahead can you see with a lamp? Not very far. Right? God gives you a lamp for it. He shows you what is right in front of you, not down the line. Right. I always like that, because I’m gonna has to like it as much as we hate it. But I mean, the ability that we have to surrender that to God, it’s, you know, our wanting to cling to it is just our attempt at control.

Kemir Baker 16:13
Yeah, it’s our version of security.

Paige C. Clark 16:16
Yeah. Really, our security should just be in Jesus.

Kemir Baker 16:19
Yeah. And that’s what he says. And that’s why there’s a castle wrestle. Yeah, yeah, that tension there.

Paige C. Clark 16:26
So tell me a little bit about you’re developing faith-based products. Obviously, you know, you are living out those principles in your work. But what I hear from a lot of my friends who have worked in ministry is that it can become a little bit, I guess, numbing, huh, in essence, so like, for example, so I don’t correct me if this is a poor example. But like you’re writing a curriculum, and you’re spending time in the Word writing this curriculum based on what you said, you just count that as your time spent with Jesus.

Kemir Baker 17:12
Oh, yeah, that doesn’t work for me.

Paige C. Clark 17:15
I don’t think it works for anyone.

Kemir Baker 17:18
Yeah, I learned the hard way; like God, he interrupts me like he is very devoted to us having time together. And so if I’m not putting my time in with him, I start going crazy. I’m just like, emotionally, I’m all over the place. My faith is all over the place. And even when I’m home with my family, because there are so many different levels of responsibility when you’re in your family, and you’d have less time because there are so many needs, that, you know, that’s the temptation to Okay, I’m gonna meet those needs. And then I’ll do God later, and then later becomes, you know, the next day, and then the very next day, and then it keeps going. And, but when I’m in that phase, that stage, I’m not right. I’m more hostile towards people. I’m short-tempered, I, everything is about me, it’s about me, my needs because I’m not looking through the lens of him. And I’m not being strengthened by him. And so that was something he taught me in the beginning for the nonprofit. And it’s been great because it spared me from more hurt because he is very deliberate in wanting to spend time with me. And now I can take pride in that, in the sense of, wow, you don’t need that much. Do you want this much time? You got all these other things, you’re gonna be no, and you got all these other people who want all this chaos with your debt delivery and wanted time with me. Okay, who am I to turn down the creative world?

Paige C. Clark 18:58
That’s beautiful. I have never considered that before. Hmm. I like he gets to spend time with us. And he chooses to spend time with us.

Kemir Baker 19:10
Yeah. And very deliberate with it. And yeah, and so loving and so kind. And for me, he had to transform or change my perspective to be able to see the loving-kindness because of the previous messages that I had ingrained in terms of you got to be xy and z, even to approach your stuff got to be perfect, right? And that’s not his character. That’s not his perspective. And so once I was able to remove that, that faulty lens, that foggy lens, and put that lens of through, you know, he says all time in His Word, and actually start believing that yes, I’m wonderfully formed. Yes, you know, I will do anything. The Impossible, like, are you good? Givengiving me these things in once that start being implanted or implanted in my spirit? Then it became, Oh, wow, why would I want to spend time with you? Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 20:14
One thing that I am learning to I’m going through this book on prayer, and it was, it was like, do you go to God about everything in prayer? Yeah, everything like, and that asked me a really hard question of like, am I even diluting my prayers, like you were saying earlier of like, Oh, you have to have everything all perfect, in order to approach God. And it’s like, no, am I going to Him about everything? Because he already knows, like, who am I kidding? Like, he already knows my thoughts. And, like, Why do I think he’s so far removed from me that I don’t need to be going to him about this stuff?

Kemir Baker 20:59
Yeah. And God just challenged me recently in that I was praying, crying, and praying as I do at times. Because of my own stuff. What happened? But when I was praying, it was so clear that gentle whisper was, you’re not asking. Am I? Oh, can’t you? You already know, like, Are you kidding? Me? No, my tires. He is insulted to hear that boys have, even though he knows he still wants us to ask. Yeah. And it’s so hard to get in that mindset sometimes because we could go on autopilot. But yeah, I got this to-do list. Today, I got ten items; I’m just gonna rush through it. And then, for me, sometimes doing that without putting him first, I still feel so unfulfilled. And or I feel more anxious. I’m so anxious because there’s so much that needs to get done. And then it’s like, but what would it be like if I went to him in the morning and said, God got my day? What would that ten list look like? I’m pretty sure it will change. And so recently, I started to say, Okay, God helped me to guide my day and give me the things that are going to be the most impactful for that. Yeah, because there’s so much to get done. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 22:29
They’re all buzzes. Yeah.

Kemir Baker 22:31
And I was telling my mom the other day; I was like, I feel like a little hamster on the wheel just going and going and going. But I don’t have anything to show for it. In my mindset, right, right.

Paige C. Clark 22:42
I was telling my husband the other day I, like, was on a rollout, like with my personal work. And I was working, and I was working. And I walked it out into the kitchen, and the sweet thing made dinner for me and all that stuff. And I walked out, I’m like, Okay, I’m finally finished with work. I’m like; I’m at a stopping point where I’m not finished with it by any means. But I’m at a place where I can stop for the day. So you know, yes, there’s always something to do. So how do you check yourself? When it comes to, like, especially running your own business? Like, doing just like a self-inventory of, like, one, you’re the person in charge. So like, the line stops with you? Also, like, there’s always going to be something to do. Exactly.

Kemir Baker 23:35
And I will say that has been my journey for years, learning to rest in Him. And so we’re always having that conversation. Here we go, sit down. Let me get things done. Yeah. And in April, I ended up getting sick. And I thought that I had COVID. And I thought I had pneumonia. We have some respiratory bugs, and they just took me out. And for two weeks, as I was sick, there were things I just couldn’t do because I wasn’t feeling well. But that’s when I saw God doing things with the nonprofit like doors just start opening up. And I was like, oh, so basically you tell me I mean your way. So you had to set me back. So you can start opening up the doors because my innate nature is to work. He tells me all the time you can’t work your miracle. And so so, how do I check myself? I got sick. I try not to get to the next stream. But sometimes, because I get so fixated, you know God will provide interruptions to kind of get me back on track. Yeah, sometimes I’m in tune enough that I can stop myself. But it depends on what my priorities are at that time. So yeah,

Paige C. Clark 24:57
I can definitely understand that because I am surrounded by people who do not call you stubborn but might be a little bit stubborn about God’s lessons. And like, you have to, like, be bed down for two weeks in order for you to, like, completely understand it. And just like watching God move. Yeah. Me and my husband just went through something similar where I’m like, oh my god, I just wanted to tell you, like you learn lessons the hard way, like, learn lessons. So this is where we’re at. Like,

Kemir Baker 25:33
yeah, yeah. Because even while I was sick initially, I thought I just had a cold. So I prepared to be out for five days, but it just kept going. And so it’s like, are you listening in? Let me know.

Paige C. Clark 25:53
Right, right, exactly. And I always think to, like, I’m actually, ironically enough, I’m doing a series about rest right now. And, like, the different types of rest. Yeah, and like, I think I mean, I didn’t realize this up until maybe a few years ago, but like, there are different types of rest, and we need to be providing rest for our whole selves. Yeah. And, you know, we just think rest is like binge-watching Netflix and sleeping until noon, like cool. But really, like, that will only maybe fix, you know, physical and mental rest. But what if your rest needs to be social or emotional, or spiritual? Like, which rest do you need? And, if you’re feeling drained after your rest, you’re probably not getting the right type.

Kemir Baker 26:46
Oh, yeah, for sure. And even for me, where my lesson comes in most is sleep rest. Because of the to-do list, I gotta get this done. And someone reminded me that when you’re not sleeping, you’re not giving your body the opportunity to recover. Yeah. And you don’t make up that time. Like your body never fully recovers what you deprived it of. Yeah. Because you will think, Okay, well, Saturday, I’ll just sleep in. And that submit the like, you still didn’t get what your body needs to fully function. And then another thing that a friend really encouraged me with and wanted me to have the visual is that when you’re sleeping, that is working. So why not take a break? And keep working? Yeah, it’s thinking that it’s all on me. It’s like, Oh,

Paige C. Clark 27:43
yeah. Yeah. And I heard something said about the Sabbath. And the same, in the same regard, is like, do you think you’re so like, as a gut check of like, do you think you’re so important that the world is going to stop if you’re not in it for a day? Like, that’s, like, that’s not the truth, like ego check. Like, you know, the world can exist without you for a day. So take it off because God told us to.

Kemir Baker 28:10
Yeah, for sure. And yet, we’re having this conversation because it’s so challenging to do it.

Paige C. Clark 28:15
Yes. Yes, exactly. It is tough to do it. And then also, I think it’s really fun. I mean, I love when, like, science is like scratching its head at like mysteries that God created. And sleep is one of them. You know, I have done a lot of research into sleep. And there are people who do it professionally. And they’re like, why do we need like this? Like, why are our bodies hardwired for this chunk of time? You know, I think it’s like a third of your life spent asleep. Like why have our bodies evolved to that point? When really I’m like, I think there’s like a divine reason for I don’t have an answer for it. But I think there’s a divine reason that God created us to need sleep. Yeah. And we just like don’t know, or at least science doesn’t know it.

Kemir Baker 29:08
Sure. Yeah. They’ll give you some ideas. Of course.

Paige C. Clark 29:13
Yeah. Yeah. And they’ll tell you what happens if you don’t sleep. Like, there are a lot of things that happen when you don’t sleep, but the stuff, especially around dreams and your brain and like, like why the why we don’t what the why we need sleep is only in the side effects and the symptoms of not sleeping. It’s not in the actual, like, the core of why we actually need sleep as a human right. Yes, that’s mine aside. I’m like looking at my book right now, and I let just video about it. It’s called Why We Sleep. Yeah, I mean, it’s all. It’s all the stuff.

Kemir Baker 30:04
I’m like, one of the things that’s so clear is that you like to learn. Oh, yeah,

Paige C. Clark 30:09
I mean, this bookshelf and then also the other day, I, like, have a mini meltdown. Because we moved in here, like, a year and a half ago, and like, there are still boxes in closets like, that’s real life. And I was looking for a specific book, and I couldn’t find it anywhere. And just like this one book, I haven’t picked up in years. I couldn’t find it anywhere. I’m like, where’s this book running around my house? So yeah, definitely a bookworm or reader learner. Alright, let’s kind of bring it back, bring it around. You’ve kind of hinted at it. But I want you to go a little bit more in-depth about what kind of your day looks like when it comes to rising and being with God. And then, like, family? Do you have kids? I don’t have kids. So I

Kemir Baker 31:05
don’t have children with Okay.

Paige C. Clark 31:06
Okay. Are you? Are you married?

Kemir Baker 31:08
I’m not married. Okay,

Paige C. Clark 31:10
so you are taking care of yourself. And

Kemir Baker 31:13
like, so have the least amount of distractions.

Paige C. Clark 31:17
But also, like, I think it’s a little bit easier to, like, get away with not doing stuff when you’re like, not alone. Correct me if I’m wrong, but

Kemir Baker 31:28
you have, I think, in general, you have to be deliberate. Yeah. And that was one of the things why I like Paul because no matter what, he was very deliberate, and everything that he did. But for me, in terms of my morning routine, which I know those who are married and have children, this is probably not possible for them because of RAM and commitment. But for myself, about two years ago, we were reading a book together as part of our church fellowship. And one of the things they talked about was, as soon as you wake up in the morning, drop to your knees and pray, even before you go to rest. So for the past few years, that’s been my routine, I get up, and I drop into that fray. And it’s just five minutes. It’s not my full prayer because I still do have to go to the restroom.

Paige C. Clark 32:17
Yes, and you need a coffee. If you drink coffee or tea. Yeah, yeah, I

Kemir Baker 32:21
wake up. But that has been really insightful because I’m acknowledging him. And I’m, you know, because you think we might have received text or quotes about having God first thing in the morning? Well, I can, I can say, Yes, I do. Yeah. And then, after that, the restroom break, I have the privilege of being able to sit in and study God’s Word. And so my quiet times are usually about 30 to 45 minutes, and I just dig and allow him to speak into me. But I will say I get in trouble at times because I will break that to do email or internet stuff. So I can post things about the organization. And then, of course, when I do that, I’m so disgusted at myself, like, you know, they’re supposed to yield to him. A guy needs to structure to come in a while going on social media first, right? And so it still is a level of discipline. Yeah. Because if it’s not, in the sense of me making an effort, I will make an effort to do something else. And it happens very quickly and easily. And so, but when I’m at home with my family, I don’t have that luxury; I don’t have the luxury of having this quiet space for 30 to 45 minutes. I don’t have the luxury to get up the big in prayer on my knees first thing in the morning. And so when I’m in that context when things are, you have a family to take care of. I have to make sure that I’m praying throughout the day, I have to make sure that I find, you know, 510 15 minutes where I can read a song and be refreshed in my spirit, where I’m able to just find that that little time, that nugget for me so that God can calm my spirit. And so it took me a moment because I felt guilty. I’m like, oh, normally you’re like at three, five minutes. And now this is like 10. Yeah. And so I had to learn how to be creative and seek him throughout the day, and even repeating scriptures throughout the day, so that I’m still being reminded of his work or even if I’m doing a chore or if I have to drive somewhere where I put something on immediately that’s sharing about him just to reconnect my spirit. Yeah, because living is there, and it’s legit. And it just happens. And, for those mothers who have small kids, it’s like it’s nearly impossible even go to the restroom there to door,

Paige C. Clark 35:16
right? Just go to the bathroom.

Kemir Baker 35:21
Has anybody tried to lie to him? Totally. You’re like, Oh my goodness. And so so you have to be more creative to have that union with Him. Yeah. But I knew that if I was not deliberate in that level of distraction or family environment, then at some point, it would come out. So don’t be like me. Are you being really short to me? Yes, you are. Or, like I said before, just thinking about me, well, you did this wrong and right. And it’s because I haven’t had that time with him. And so when I, when someone checks me from my character, shortness, then I know, girl, you need to go spend your time go outside, walk around the house, even if it’s for five minutes, cry out to do something where you communion with Him?

Paige C. Clark 36:22
Yeah. And I think too, like, you haven’t touched on something that I haven’t considered before of like that guilt of, like, not spending enough time with God. At that, like when you have that guilt, or just, I guess, maybe that conviction, right? It’s making it about you, too. Right. Like, yeah, like, it’s like, I feel bad because I’m, I didn’t do this. But then, like, you know, we’re able to, I think if we reframe that into, like, what you were saying earlier is like, God wants to be spending this time with us.

Kemir Baker 37:03
Yeah. Yeah. And because even if you don’t reframe it, and you stay in that mindset, what happens is you feel so guilty, and it just keeps continuing to the point that you just give up altogether. Yeah. Because now you just feel so poorly about yourself, and then it reflects and other things that you do throughout the day. And so, I definitely go down that path many times, and I had to reevaluate and seek deliverance even if I think about him in a given moment. Oh, that’s actually really good. Because we can go on autopilot and, you know, just do all those things. But even if we allow ourselves to pause in our day and think about him, and even say in that thought, that I just love you. Yeah. Why wouldn’t he want to hear that? Yeah, my mother loves me. Okay. Yeah. Pausing is just telling me that she loves me today.

Paige C. Clark 38:12
Yeah, for sure. When you mentioned it, it was on the bathroom door. It just took me back to this funny video that I wish I could share. But it’s my nephew. And my brother-in-law is in the shower. And my nephew is literally on the floor looking underneath the doorframe. Dad Ha, like he’s like a one-and-a-half Dadda Dadda. You’re talking back and forth. And my sister took a video of it. I was just like, that’s so funny because it is like really true. Like, I don’t have kids either. But yeah, it is true that they are literally in the bathroom.

Kemir Baker 38:54
Looking for you? Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 38:56
I think one thing to have, like, that just sticks out to me is just doing that little bit. I fall into that trap, especially when it comes to like working out the days where I’m like, I got nothing, like I have nothing in the tank. And I just go, okay, just go try to do as much as you can in the gym. And then that’s going to be enough for today. And whatever I ended up doing or when I’m actually working out, if I’m like, I am just, and I can’t continue any longer. I’ll look okay; I got 15 minutes, and 15 minutes is better than nothing.

Kemir Baker 39:35
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And then, for those who don’t have those distractions and do have the opportunity to invest in that time, I’ve learned from myself that I’m better equipped to meet my challenges. If I spend that time with God in the morning, so that he’s guiding me throughout the day, because there was one period where I was like, I’ll do that. And then what happens at nighttime you are tired? You can’t really grab hold of anything. And you don’t have anything to refer to. Yeah. Because the day is over in terms of pulling you out of circumstances, right? Yeah. And so after Bible time, I go exercise. And then after that, I start working.

Paige C. Clark 40:21
Yeah. And then the grind starts. The other thing, too that that stood out to me is the discipline in, in all of these conversations I’m having, especially on this podcast; I realize that there is, I mean, an intended or unintended kind of stereotype that Christians don’t have to be disciplined in their faith, or like, they don’t have to schedule out their faith. Almost every person I write to, every person I’ve talked to, almost every person I’ve talked to on this podcast, has talked about how they schedule out time and they are disciplined in their time with God. And I think that I don’t want to normalize that and normalize the; it’s okay if it doesn’t feel natural. If it doesn’t naturally come about, it’s okay if it doesn’t because guess what? That’s just the world that you’re living in right now.

Kemir Baker 41:29
Yeah. And then I think a lot of that stems from God being invisible. If he was in a physical representation, and you had access to him physically throughout the day, it wouldn’t be any different than your people relationships, where you have been married, like you want to spend, sometimes you want to spend time because sometimes you need a break from

Paige C. Clark 41:55
you also the time I want to spend time with him, yes. All

Kemir Baker 41:57
right. But you stay together because there are things that you really appreciate about him, and he brings things into your life. And so you have something tangible and physical to draw you back to him. And if he wasn’t physically there, after a while, you would miss him. And you will feel like something is missing in your life. And so because God is invisible, we don’t have that physical connection, that physical reminder that physical, like, I will do anything for you. And so that’s why it comes to okay; it requires discipline because I’m having this relationship with someone that I can’t physically see. Even though, at times, you will basically have his awareness and how he’s orchestrating things in your life. And then you get even more excited because you’re like, hey, is there love, right? Without those little kisses, as I call them? We can be oblivious. Oh, yeah, gosh, I love that. We can be oblivious to him working behind the scenes. Yeah. And I

Paige C. Clark 43:11
think too, oh my god, like, I’m a little choked up because that was so beautiful. Just little gods, little kisses. I think when we look at other religions or ways of thought, what we see is that attempt to grasp the physical. Yeah, you know, you think of like, even like having statues, and even in Christian history, right? Like, there was like this whole, you know, uproar if, like, Jesus should be in a picture or not, right? Like, there was the whole controversy around that. But when you look at a lot of other religions, a lot of them either if there’s like, a city that they’re supposed to go to, because it’s extra sacred, or that’s how they can access God or even like having a statue or some kind of idol or, or what have you even like if I’m gonna make some people mad about this. But, like, with the New Age stuff, you have like crystals, and you have, you know, things like that in the world where people are just like, trying to grasp onto something. And I think that’s like a really good point is like, we’re just, I think a lot of them are trying to make sense of the world that God has given us. Yeah,

Kemir Baker 44:35
yet, because we need something visual to connect with. Yeah, he does answer for that. Because we know that people got in trouble with the idols, and he was like, Hey, that’s not me. And his answer was if you want to remember me, just write my Word everywhere in the house. Yeah. Because, like, that’s how you remember me because there’s truth in that Word, and as you hold on to that truth, you’re actually holding on To me,

Paige C. Clark 45:01
yeah. And also, like, communion and taking in, you know, the bread and the cup like that. Do this in remembrance of me, like, right? That’s how. And I think too, like one thing that I’ve really been leaning into, I’d say like, over the past few months, is really looking at not artwork that I idolize, but more so like artwork and things of beauty and things of creativity, that just reminds me of God. Yeah. Yeah. And then when I’m in my space, I’m able to look at that and be like, oh, like, that’s, that’s God’s presence in my life, not not the actual thing. But it is the reminder; it’s like a post-it note, the post-it notes, not the actual thing that you have to do. It’s a reminder of the thing you have to do.

Kemir Baker 45:55
It would be great if posted could actually do the work.

Paige C. Clark 45:58
Right? I feel like that’s like a that’s gonna be like coming down the Word like, ai company. Oh, my gosh, I’m gonna give you a sneak peek. I’m like; I was just working on this social post before. We had this. And I was on a call with this group that I’m a part of called the writer’s block. And the gal who’s speaking this week said AI is not the Imago Dei. How’s it? Oh, yes, like full-body chills in the best way. Like, AI is not the Mako day in so much. So like, we’re talking about writing, and you know, AI is gonna take our jobs and everything. But it was like no, like, we are made in the image of God. And when we write, we’re able to reflect that too. For sure. Yeah. All the beautiful things. Well, cashmere, this conversation has been so good. And I like, I can’t wait to like to look back over the transcript of this and just like write down all the little things like gods kisses, I’m, I’m saving that one that you know, that’s gonna go on my whiteboard next to me. But one question I always like to end with is, what is a tangible faith discipline that someone can enact in their life this week to help grow their faith?

Kemir Baker 47:21
Yes, in so I chuckled, because living by myself, it’s easy for me to talk to myself. They say you don’t do it. We all know to do it. Oh, everyone does. Yeah. And so, in this context, instead of being told you can’t do it, just talk to God throughout the day. And as I shared earlier, even in that five minutes, or that one, or that 32nd 10 seconds, just even say, God, I love you today. And as you do that, allow yourself to connect to His Spirit so that as you continue throughout the rest of your day, you’re not just on autopilot; there’s an awareness that he’s with you. And there’s an awareness that you are drawing close to him, even when the chaos is not possible of that.

Paige C. Clark 48:13
I’m not going to add anything else; we’re going to end on that. Thank you so much for coming here; where can people find you if they want to connect with you if they want to see the curriculum that you’re putting out there? Tell us all the things.

Kemir Baker 48:27
Yes. So even though the name of the company is really long, we are known as J Intel. So if you go to our website, jintl.org, You can learn more about myself, our story, and how we came about the services that we offer. And we also have on there just articles to continue on the terms of your emotional wellness and just learning and gaining insight. And then, of course, we’re on Facebook. So on Facebook, where j entailed that

Paige C. Clark 48:58
here we go. There we go. And I’ll also add it in the show notes so people can find it with complete ease because

Kemir Baker 49:06
create new names.

Paige C. Clark 49:07
Yes. Thank you so much for joining me, and we’ll catch you guys next week on the pod. Have a good one. Bye.

Paige C. Clark 00:41
Hello, hello, everyone. I am here with one of my new friends Gina Anderson. And I am so excited to have her on the podcast and talk about her life and her work and how that points us closer to God. How are you doing today? Gina?

Gena Anderson 00:59
I’m fantastic. It’s Friday, as we’re recording this. So Friday afternoon, so I think I’m doing pretty well. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 01:06
And you like to work a regular work week where it’s like five days on and two days off?

Gena Anderson 01:13
Yes, for the most part, I actually work four days four.

Paige C. Clark 01:17
days. Okay. Oh, I wish I could do 410s. Is that amazing?

Gena Anderson 01:23
It is the days are long when you’re working. But having the extra day off during the week. I’m sure you’re going to. You’re gonna ask me questions about this is awesome.

Paige C. Clark 01:32
Yeah, yeah. So tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do? How can I get to work for 10s?

Gena Anderson 01:43
Well, as far as working for 10s, that was just something that I wasn’t doing until a year ago; I was working five days a week. And then that was something that they just offered and said my company said, Hey, you could work for TINs if you want to. And I said I absolutely want to thank you very much. So that’s how that happened. But I would say absolutely or see. Yeah. But I live in Central Texas outside of Austin. And in a small town called Hutto, that’s not so small anymore growing. And so I am married, and I have two kids. One is 15. And the other is 11. We have two dogs. And right now it is very hot here. And it tends to stay that way all summer long. And so I professionally what I do; I’m a family nurse practitioner, and I specialize in weight management. And so I do that full time. And additionally, I’m a Christian author and writer. And so I do a lot of that kind of thing. And then, as a mom, doing all of the shuttling the children around in this phase of life that we’re in. And personally, the things that I really like to do besides writing and reading and hanging out with my family, and working because I do love what I do. I think it’s one of the greatest privileges of my life to be a nurse and now a nurse practitioner for the last five years or so. But additionally, I love to be active and exercise and go for hikes and work in my yard and be outside in nature. I love traveling with my family, and I do that as often as we can. And I love cheesecake and red wine. I love that. That’s kind of me.

Paige C. Clark 03:25
I love that I actually have. I think on my website, I have. I love iced tea and dark chocolate.

Gena Anderson 03:30
I would take both of those also.

Paige C. Clark 03:35
She’s kicking red wine. I just feel like it’s people who are like, Oh, what’s your favorite food and like, you can just like go to it. But it’s like when it’s part of you. It’s part of you, and you totally understand it.

Gena Anderson 03:46
Yeah, but yeah, coffee. Also, I don’t know how I would live without coffee.

Paige C. Clark 03:51
That’s, that’s amazing. Thank you for sharing that. So how long have you been doing nursing?

Gena Anderson 03:59
So for 19 years, I think this year in December would be 20 years. That’s my 20-year nurse adversary. So a little bit

Paige C. Clark 04:09
a little while. Well, just a short bit. And how long have you been with the current company that you’re currently with?

Gena Anderson 04:18
For years a little over?

Paige C. Clark 04:19
Wow, that’s awesome to that. I feel like we’re we live in a generation where people just kind of the turnover rate is so high. So even like for years. I mean, it’s not, you know, the 20, 30, 40 years that you used to hear like of grandpa, but for years is still significant in in in the market that we currently have.

Gena Anderson 04:43
Yeah, you You’re right about that. I think in my profession, though, I am actually in the process of transitioning here in a few weeks to a different job. So it’s funny that you say that it’s a different company. Yeah. And it wasn’t necessarily my plan. It’s God’s plan. When was that I? This was a complete surprise. To me, but that’s a discussion probably for another day. But yes, I think, especially in other in my profession, it’s important to have a relationship with your patients. And that just takes time. So I don’t think leaving quickly bodes well for anybody, but in a lot of other professions there, people move around a lot these days.

Paige C. Clark 05:19
Yeah, that’s for sure. And don’t tell me a little bit about like how you found yourself in nursing. Obviously, you went to school for it, but like, why did you choose it? Why did you go down that route? And then also, like, I love to hear where did your faith journey align with your career journey? Were you already a Christian when you decided to become a nurse? How did all of that look?

Gena Anderson 05:46
Yes, that’s a good topic to discuss what a good question is. So I became a nurse. Well, what pointed me in that direction really was the suggestion of my mother; I shadowed a nurse in middle school. And it was a project that we had to do, we’re supposed to shadow someone in their career, and I really kind of was enamored with how it was at a clinic, and small-town clinic. And I really kind of just loved how these people, the patients, would connect with the nurses there. And just how there was, you could see this relationship, and this is carrying this with the nurses, and some of the patients would bring in cookies, or a little goodie or something. And it just seemed, it just seemed so life-giving to everyone. I love the relationship part of it. And so I knew that after that point, I knew that I wanted to do something where I could work with people. And I knew that I was interested in the human body and always had been interested in health and wellness. And so that’s kind of where it led to me writing about that. And then I also Ironically, one of the things I didn’t want to do at the time was having a job where I was sitting at a computer, which is funny because now we just use computers all day, every day. But at the time, I didn’t know that was where the world was heading. Yeah. And so, for those reasons, that’s what led me into nursing. I was a Christian I was I grew up going to church, Southern Baptist Church, and I had a profession of faith and was saved as a young child. But what I would say is, I didn’t really; it was kind of my Get Out of Jail Free card for a long time. And I mean, I went to church when I wanted to, and I didn’t really live out that day; I didn’t live a life of discipleship and those kinds of things. And so I kept my work in my faith pretty separate. For many years, and then, as, as I, probably in my early 30s or late 20s, started to really develop a relationship with the Lord, I started to learn that, oh, discipleship happens in the workplace and out in the world. You know, it’s not being a Christian isn’t about going to church, there’s nothing wrong, you should go to church, but right, that actually in the workplace is where we have the opportunity to live out our faith. So now, especially in my role as a nurse practitioner, I would say I, I live that out regularly, more often, more authentically, because I have an opportunity to sit down one on one with people and discuss what’s going on in their lives and often does lead to a discussion about faith. Yeah. And, so it’s been an evolution as far as my faith and my work, a giant being and what that looks like.

Paige C. Clark 08:41
Yeah, that’s, that’s a great story. And I mean, the answer to this could totally be No, but have you had any experiences as a nurse that have caused you to knock like it could question your faith or just like, be a sticking point for your faith in your career journey?

Gena Anderson 09:05
That is a good question. You know,

Paige C. Clark 09:09
I think it also depends on what area of nursing Yeah, you kind of stick? Yes,

Gena Anderson 09:14
I have done many areas of nursing. But if anything, actually, I would say that it has reinforced my faith and reinforced what God’s Word teaches us because there are a lot of things that you run across. I mean, I have seen some really devastating things happen, you know, holding people’s hands as they die. Young people who you know you would think shouldn’t die. It’s too young. You know, I’ve seen a lot of hard things happen. But often, if people know the Lord, they are so resilient in those moments and their keys, and you can really have a front-row seat to see how God really works. So I can’t say I’ve had I had a time where it’s made me an experience or something going on with a patient has made me question my life; it’s actually been the opposite. It solidified and encouraged me in my fate.

Paige C. Clark 10:12
Hmm, that’s beautiful. I think one thing that I heard recently is, you know, that like, there’s always the poignant question of, like, Why does God let you know bad things happen to good people and that whole kind of rigmarole. But it’s it was around the idea of suffering. Of like, when you’re a Christian, you’ll still suffer. And like, you know, the Bible shows us that. But as Christians, we get a unique hope through suffering that makes the suffering a lot easier. And I feel like that’s a little bit of what you were saying is what you would see and, you know, patients going through hardships.

Gena Anderson 10:55
Exactly, exactly. Like, I can tell you that one story that is just a quick story that, again, a guy shared with me; he was actually doing quite well physically at this point. But a number of years before, he had heart surgery, open heart surgery, and he actually died as his heart stopped. And during some, I think, during the recovery process or something, and they coded him and brought him back. But he said in that experience, he actually met Jesus and saw him. And when he came back, he woke up, and he was still in this role. He was mad. I mean, he was, he was like, and he makes it a point. This has been years. But he makes a point to make all anyone who takes care of him. No, like, do not ever resuscitate me; if I’m going again, I’m staying there like that. So just things like that, that you hear that, that just reinforce how, even in death, which is so hard for us that are left behind that, that it’s such a good thing to move on to the next life and be with Jesus. And even in suffering. A lot of times, people, even though it’s hard, it’s hard to watch. It’s hard to experience. A lot of times, people have such intimacy with the Lord as the Lord draws near to us when we suffer. So I just get to see that a lot.

Paige C. Clark 12:19
Yeah, that’s beautiful. One thing that I’m actually one of the writing projects that I’m working on is how to be close to God, in not suffering in the mundane. Because, yeah, you’re 100% Right. It’s, it’s hard, but it’s easy to cling to some good and some hope, and usually that that cling is to God.

Gena Anderson 12:45
Yeah, yeah. And I do think, for me, personally, I can definitely relate to that. Like, it is a challenge to cling to the Lord so tightly when everything’s kind of okay.

Paige C. Clark 12:55
Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about I like to kind of make it from a macro. Yes, I like to practice my faith at work. But, like, let’s take it micro. And let’s talk about, like, what does that actually look like on a day-to-day basis? How do you show up as a Christ follower? In your work and with your patients, and were with your colleagues, and so on and so forth?

Gena Anderson 13:26
Yeah, so I try to, in anything I do in my life, live with bearing that identity showing that identity in Christ. And so I try to bring that into my workplace. And I wouldn’t say that I talk about Jesus all the time or, you know, mention his name all the time. I look for moments to do that. But I would say I try to live it out and in trying to live out my faith in what I do. Yeah. And so how I interact with people, one of the things that I really prioritize is just listening to people, and really listening to, to what’s behind what they’re saying, what’s going on in their life, and making them feel heard. I think that’s one of the biggest gifts that you can give people, and they’re not going to trust you or give you the time of day to give them medical advice or, you know, tips on encouraging them to know the Lord. Either way, if they don’t feel like you care about them. And so, with my coworkers, with my patients, I think I just really work on listening, being present with them, and taking the time to make them feel heard and cared about. And that, to me, is as important or more important than medically making the right decision and doing the right thing for them because I just think it matters more. Yeah. And so that’s really how I live that out. And, you know, I’ve done little, little practical things, sometimes, like I said, I help people lose weight. And so if I see they’re struggling, and we have a conversation about their faith, and they’re open to it, I’ll make one of their weight loss goals, you know, things like to eat more vegetables, and of course, there are specifics around it, but I’ll make one of their goals to be to pray every morning or find a couple of Bible verses that encourage them. And so I do it in practical ways, too. But mostly, it’s, it’s just in how I interact with people, just helping them to, to feel like, like, they matter.

Paige C. Clark 15:46
I think that you have you and anyone else in the healthcare kind of industry, especially those who have interfaced with patients. And when you work at a smaller, you know, not like the ER, where it’s gonna come in, and they’re gonna leave. Hopefully, you don’t see that person again. But, in the industry and in the function that you’re at, you actually get to build relationships with these people. And I think that’s one thing that I didn’t necessarily anticipate going into this conversation. Like, I just, I just didn’t really think of it of, yeah, like I, I work to build this kind of rapport with my coworkers. But that’s because I talked to my coworkers all the time, but you have that with your coworkers and your patients, and the people are like, you know, quote, unquote, your customers, right? The people you interface with daily also extend your patients.

Gena Anderson 16:46
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that’s one of the reasons why I say it’s such a privilege because you really get this intimate relationship with people. And people trust you with some sometimes really vulnerable information that they’re sharing with you. And so it’s pretty sacred, really? And yeah, it’s definitely, it’s a privilege, but it’s an opportunity for a Christian.

Paige C. Clark 17:10
Yeah. And, and to the other thing that stood out while you were talking is, is the ability to connect faith with kind of overall well-being and physical health; I think that I kind of see it a little bit in the Christian environment, that this, this idea of physical health is a little bit far removed from our faith when really, it is very, very intertwined. And you hear a lot of people who say, you know, our bodies are temporary, but also God created our bodies. So intentionally and so detailed that, like, we get these bodies, even though they’re just temporary for life, like we need to be good stewards of that.

Gena Anderson 18:06
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 100%. That is, that is one of the things that inspired me to start writing about wellness as a Christian and mostly geared towards Christian women, but because I don’t hear a lot of talk about that in churches, you know, hear a lot of sermon series on health and wellness. Yeah, but I love that you said our bodies are temporary because our bodies are also a temple. Yeah. And, so yes, they’re temporary, you know, we don’t need to make it an idol to write, you know, to make our bodies look a certain way. So that we get praise or we get the attention that we want. But our bodies are a temple, and we can’t do what God created us to do. And we can’t, we can’t experience, but God intends for us to experience if we’re not well, and part of that is their spiritual, mental, and physical wellness. You know, it’s all-encompassing. And then, on the flip side, for me personally, as a healthcare provider, if I’m just treating the physical and I’m ignoring the spiritual Well, then I’m missing a whole. I mean, I can’t tell you how many people come in. As I said, I specialize in helping people lose weight. I would say over half of those people are facing a spiritual and emotional battle that is holding them back from reaching their health and wellness goals. So I have to address that. I have to pay attention to that. And I have to have to be open to conversations about both. And so yeah, I think you’re totally right. I think that, in the Christian spaces, we could do with starting started a few years ago, really emphasizing and embracing and discussing mental health issues. Right. That’s awesome. And I’d love to see it even go further and to spill over into more physical health issues and, yeah, kind of thing.

Paige C. Clark 20:04
Yeah. And the funny thing is, too, so my husband and his family, they’re all or he was raised up seventh day Avernus and Seventh Day Adventists are known for their emphasis on healthy living. So if you look at the healthiest city in America, it’s actually in California. It’s Loma Linda, which is a Seventh-Day Adventist community. And there’s Loma Loma Linda high school or hospital, and there’s the medical school there and all that stuff. And it’s the healthiest community because that’s just kind of what they put their emphasis on in terms of their living. But yeah, that’s what I always like to say, every denomination has this little focus area, where I’m just like, we need to like all of that, oh, I just hit my mic. Well, we have all of that kind of like all at once. But that’s just an aside. But yeah, it’s the funniest thing where I’m part of their community outreach, there’s, you know, a ton of SDA churches out here, part of their outreach is doing a diabetes care clinic, at a church. Like that was one of their ministries that they did was, hey, let’s help you take care of and manage your diabetes.

Gena Anderson 21:27
Well, that’s awesome. I love it. All right, interesting. I actually didn’t know that. And you hear where I am. And so many churches now are nondenominational, but right in this area used to be so heavily Southern Baptist. And I mean, I feel like as far as I mean, we’re every event has a casserole full of, you know, butter and chicken soup, and, you know, whatever else goes in there. And so, I think that’s awesome. You know, and I’d love to see more of that in Christian circles, and I’m not. Yeah, it’s not talked about at all, but Right, yeah, but see more, and it matters.

Paige C. Clark 22:07
Yeah. And, and that there’s just that one, you know, just that one ministry of having, like, you know, like, how to manage your diabetes, I was, it just took me aback where I was just like, oh, like, you know, God is still in that space, too. And just like, you know, approaching ministry from, like, a really unique perspective. For example, the church that we attend they have what they call a Car Care Clinic. And it is a very practical, tangible way of ministering to people in the community is helping them out with any current issues that they may have, you know, and so it’s just kind of like thinking outside the box of, you know, what ministry could really look like, and really see that God can be in all of these different places.

Gena Anderson 22:54
Yeah, well, and often, that’s how we reach people by meeting their practical needs. And then it that sort of starts that trust relationship I was talking about, yeah, you can, if you can meet a practical need that they have, in a physical way, whether it’s with their physical body or in your car, or whatever it is, you know, then then they see that you care, and then they’re like, now tell me about what is this Jesus that you’re talking about?

Paige C. Clark 23:19
Right. And if you look at Jesus’s ministry, and what he went after, in terms of, you know, his healings and right, like when he fed the 5000, right, like it was a very practical need people needed to eat so he provided food.

Gena Anderson 23:38
Sure, for sure, Jesus met practical needs all the time.

Paige C. Clark 23:42
Yeah. Yeah. And it just wasn’t, and which is, you know, part of my little, you know, soapbox at all live and die on it was like, let’s not just give people fluff, like, let’s actually meet people and give people practical actions, which is what we finished this podcast with. But we’re not there yet today. So take me through a little bit because you’re you started off this conversation by telling me all the hats you’re wearing, which is phenomenal. And I totally resonate with that. I don’t resonate with the mom hat because I’m not a mom; I am a dog owner. I don’t call myself a dog. Mom, I hate that term. Because it is different, in my opinion. And mom’s odors of dogs are different as much as I love my fluffy dogs. Talk about, like, what that looks like and kind of wearing all of those hats, and also making sure you’re caring for yourself in a spiritual way.

Gena Anderson 24:39
Yeah, so it is a challenge. To be honest, it adds a challenge, and I’m someone I told someone the other day speaking of dogs; I said, I said we were talking about retirement and those kinds of things. And I said, you know how there are certain dog breeds that they say they misbehave and you I get in trouble because they’re bred to work. And they want to be doing what they were bred to do, right? And I feel like I’m that kind of human, that was a dog. I was bred to work. And so, for me, as a mom, I know that there are a lot of moms that, once they have children, stay at home. And that’s amazing. Yeah, but I did it a little bit and a couple of phases in my life. But mostly, I have always worked at least part, if not full-time. And I just need that satisfaction of having meaningful work for myself. And that interaction with other humans that aren’t humans that I’ve heard. And yet they are the ones I’m married, you know, and get and so, but it is a challenge. And because I’m a hard worker, and my work does matter to me, some I have, I have learned to create boundaries. And, I don’t always do that perfectly, or well, but I try. And, so my days often look like that. As far as taking care of myself, I get up early in the morning, go to a 5 am workout class, do a workout at home early in the morning, and do my Bible study early in the morning. And I have to get kind of creative with how I have one on one time with the Lord. You know, I listen to Christian podcasts a lot. Sometimes in the morning, I might have five or 10 minutes at the most to be able to sit with the Lord and just pray, maybe write out a prayer and spend time listening to him for a few minutes to just connect myself with him and turn my heart to him. With the kids, you know, I’ve learned that work will always be there. And I try to prioritize things with the kids and, like my son, what do you look for these, these phases, and these times where this is a time that I can miss and I’m going to be working because that’s my responsibility. And then, on the other hand, this is a time that I don’t want to miss; my son just graduated fifth grade. And so, my last kiddo in elementary, it’s the end of an era. So I made sure this last year that I went to his activities and things like build trips and having lunch with him at school and just special things like that. And so it’s always a balance of trying to meet my responsibilities and be a good employee. But knowing that, especially as a Christian woman, your first ministry is to your family, right, and my husband and my children. So I try to keep it in mind. And a huge tip for balancing that it’s something that worked really well for me is just utilizing my calendar and always looking ahead. And so if someone says, Hey, do you want to meet and work on this thing for the church, or there’s a ministry that I’m a part of, and I volunteer with it? I’m always looking at my calendar. And sometimes it’s like, well, I’m already doing this other thing on Tuesday. So I don’t want to pick up another thing on Thursday. So no, not that week. I’ll do it next week. So just trying to balance and make sure that I’m not neglecting the people in my home. Or my work. Yeah. And it’s hard. It’s not easy. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 28:33
Yeah, you practically read my mind with, like, looking ahead and looking at your calendar. While you were talking. I was thinking, Oh, I’m hearing a trend of looking ahead here with, like, your son in fifth grade. And, you know, you have to be able to pause and kind of look forward to the upcoming season that is happening and be able to manage your time and responsibilities accordingly.

Gena Anderson 29:02
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, it does take some anticipation, and you never know what the Lord’s gonna bring. You know, he kind of does his own thing, right? So, so I have to be ready for that too. But yeah, anticipation. It’s you. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 29:20
And me and my husband just walked through like a really hard season. And in that, I usually volunteer at my church on Saturdays. And I just said, You know what, like, I need to take a step back for the season. I’ll be back. I’m not leaving forever. Like, I’ll be back and volunteering. But right now, this requires me to kind of take a step back, and you know what, like, my weekends or our weekends together, have been so just life-giving in this season that I don’t have any regrets. It’s about kind of taking that step back.

Gena Anderson 30:03
Yeah, yeah. And I, yeah, you have to listen to what the Lord puts on your heart and what’s going on in your life. And every season is different. And so the way, the way you live out whatever God has called you to do, whatever ministry or service or whatever he’s put on your heart to do in this life, it’s gonna look different in every season. Yeah, there may be a season where you’re more focused on family.

Paige C. Clark 30:25
Mm-hmm. And I think of it too; I know a lot of people say, like, use this analogy, when it when they, when it comes to like friendships of like having like thinking of like a target, you have like your center, and then you have your, like, middle ring, and then you have their outer ring, and they can keep going. That’s kind of how I see, you know, my responsibilities and even my time and energy investment. So like, in the middle is like, obviously, it’s me, but also my family, my, my family has kind of that immediate investment. And then you go out, and that’s, you know, my church community, and then you go out a little bit more, and that’s kind of where my work finds itself. It’s, yeah,

Gena Anderson 31:08
yeah. And I love that you mentioned that because I’ve seen that I know that diagram you’re talking about, yeah. But for me, I see a lot of women that neglect themselves; I’m talking about prioritizing family and all of that, but I see a lot of women that put their family, their friends, and everyone else and everything else their job sometimes to above themselves. And I prioritize self-care not. I don’t think I hope it’s not in a selfish way. Right? But because I know that I can’t give to anyone if I’m not filled up. And so that’s why my time with the Lord is precious, you know, like oxygen or nutrition for me. Yeah, and, and exercise and good nutrition and getting enough sleep. I mean, all of that I prioritize for myself because I can’t do anything. I mean, if I don’t do those things, I’m gonna be snappy with my kids. And yeah, I’m gonna not be that good listener to my patients I was talking about, and it’s all just gonna roll downhill, right? Yeah. So that’s a huge priority. I think for women, we sometimes are just really self-deprecating, like, we, we, we feel like we need to be selfless and meet everybody else’s needs. At some point, you have to make sure that yours are met.

Paige C. Clark 32:31
Yeah. And I think, too, I really go back to scripture on that of was even having a conversation about this. In one of the small groups that I attended a few years ago, and they’re like, I think they said, like, self-care is not in the Bible. I’m like, okay, but also like here, like, have self-care, as we know it in our generation. Yeah, sure. Like, Jesus wasn’t going to get a manicure. But Jesus still retreated. And he even had, you know, private time with the Lord. And he had private time and prayer. And then he even retreated with his, with a closer group of friends than his 12 disciples retreated with them, and had, you know, unique time with them. And so I just kind of point to that and saying, like, you know, Jesus took care of himself and model taking care of himself in the ways that he needed to, even though he was perfect, He still made sure to have that time with God. So that’s just kind of what I always like, like, point to when it when I see all of this,

Gena Anderson 33:47
yeah, yeah, I mean, even God rested on the seventh day. Right? Right. Not because he was tired, but right, as an example to us and to see what he had done. Yeah. So we have to take care of ourselves.

Paige C. Clark 33:59
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So when it comes to kind of practicing your own faith and wearing all the many, many hats that you do wear, what is what would you say is kind of the biggest struggle that you run into the biggest sticking point because another thing that I want to say on here is like we’re all we all fall short of the glory of God we all fail we all struggle we all sin in some way, shape or form. And no one’s walk with God looks perfect. I personally really struggle with quiet time because my brain is not turned off. So, what is kind of the biggest obstacle that you’ve run into?

Gena Anderson 34:46
So I could pick several? Yeah, I think that yeah; I got a lot of that. I could pick several if I had to if I had to pick one. That would be a big the biggest struggle for me. It would, would be self-reliance or just the need to control things. And because you’ve heard a little bit about my life, and I have a full work schedule, and the family and I are serving in different ways, and I write I do all these things, right, right? And sometimes, it can feel like a lot that I need to manage. And it’s always a constant effort for me to remember that God’s in control. And everything he gives me is mine to steward, but it’s his and, so, just always trying to go back to submitting to him. And making sure that I’m walking in His will. So not taking over with the with, like a problem arises and me wanting to problem solve, yeah, rather than spend some time in prayer about it for a little while, or take it to him, and trusting him and letting Him lead me. But I think that’s probably the biggest thing. And then time would be that, like, if I could pick a number two, I would say time, because ideally, I would, I would like to, like right now it’s summertime. And so my kids don’t have to be somewhere early in the morning most of the time. So I have a little bit more time to sit down with the Lord. But when schools are in session, and I have to be at work at a certain time, It’s like sneaking away a few minutes here and a few minutes there. And I’m praying as I’m driving in the car. And like I said, sometimes I get on my days off; I’m really glad to have that one day off during the week and the weekend so that I can see a longer time with the Lord on those days. But just flat out, the amount of time that I have is a struggle. And so the way I get around that really is sort of being creative, and always keeping my trying to keep my heart turned to the Lord. So I’m always listening to podcasts, Christian podcasts, and Christian music. And on my lunch break, I might read, you know, touching Christian content. And so, always try to stay connected, even if it’s even if my full attention isn’t there like I would want it to be in a one-on-one time. You know, in the morning, morning, quiet time, but always trying to keep my attention and my mind and my heart tuned to the Lord is sort of the solution I’ve come up with. But time, time is hard.

Paige C. Clark 37:25
Yeah. And I think that goes a lot too, again, the physical environment that we find ourselves in, of just surrounding ourselves with Jesus, and a few episodes ago, on the podcast, I had a guest say if being a Christian was illegal, do you have enough Jesus in your life surrounding your life? To be able to sustain your faith? Yeah, it’s like a question, right? Like, it was just this big sucker punch of, like, not even in terms of just, like, do I have a cross on my door? Which I don’t own any crosses? But, like, do I have enough scripture in my head? And in my heart, do you know the music that I listened to? You know, impacting my life in that way? What about the shows I watch? What about what I read, etcetera? Examine didn’t go down the list. But yeah, that was one thing. I was like a huge sucker punch of like, do I have enough Jesus just like surrounding in my life? To be able to sustain that relationship?

Gena Anderson 38:32
Yeah, yeah. It’s such a good thing to think about.

Paige C. Clark 38:36
It’s hard. It’s that was like, we at my church, we call them throat punches. That was very throughout. She has her to bring that up.

Gena Anderson 38:44
How

Paige C. Clark 38:47
dare she. But yeah, and I really resonate with the, like, the Self Reliance piece, too, because a lot of what just the studying that I’m doing is a lot around God’s provision and our attempt for control in this work. Yeah.

Gena Anderson 39:06
Yeah. I mean, that’s why when Moses went up to the mountain, they made an idol. And, if you look at biblical history, we do the same things. Maybe we’re not making idols out of golden, you know, out of gold and making a map, but, but we’re making our own, and we’re always trying to take back control. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 39:30
So what does kind of your involvement with your church look like? And how do you find enough energy to be able to invest in that way?

Gena Anderson 39:43
Yeah. Well, it is a challenge as well, but I am very involved in my church, and I’ve been involved in church almost my entire adult life. And, so currently, I’m serving at my church as an elder, and I lead a women’s Bible study, and I serve a little bit kind of fill in here and there in children’s ministry. So I’m pretty involved as far as how I’m serving. But what I would say is, if you hear that I’m an elder, and you’re like, well, that’s impressive. Before less, lest you be too impressed. Let me just tell you that I am not always at the church. I mean, just last week, for instance, it’s summertime, so we’ve been out of town, so we had not been at church. And our church had a prayer night, which I love to go to. And that morning, I was like, I’m gonna go to this prayer night. And then, as the day went on, I was like, I’m not gonna go to this night because it felt too close to when I got off of work; the day kind of got away from me. And at the end of the day, I was just very tired. And I think there’s a; there’s a bit of discernment. I know; there’s a bit of discernment there. Because you have to make sure that it’s not like Satan’s not distracting you away from what you should do. Right? You have to allow yourself permission when you have so many things that you’re doing. And you know that the Lord has put you in these places. And he’s giving you the family that he’s giving you. You have to give yourself permission to not be present at every church function. Yeah, but I would say that I’m not as present in the church physically as I would like to be. Yeah. But again, it’s a posture and a mindset and a heart thing. Yeah. So um, if I’m not there, I’m often praying for the church. And as an elder, I try to reach out and have lunch or coffee with someone on a regular basis. I don’t do that as often as I’d like to. So I would say I’m very involved, but I don’t do all the things that my heart wants to do. But I also have to just be at peace with that. Yeah. And know that the Lord’s not like, I’ll see minus for you today. Because a prayer night and that’s what he wants in my heart and our relationship with me. And so it is, it’s a it’s a battle and a balance. But I definitely have less guilt now as life has gone on. And more peace about being able to say no, when I’m not supposed to be there and then say yes to the things that I am supposed to say it.

Paige C. Clark 42:32
Yeah. And correct me if you correct me if I’m like, inaccurately portraying this, but it also sounds like you’re also protecting yourself from being performative about your faith.

Gena Anderson 42:45
Yes. And that is a big thing for me, too; one of the things that I stumbled across and I’ve written about recently is that we have to desire God’s presence more than his praise. And so it’s, it’s so important to not do something just for the recognition. And, just to be there to say that we’re there. Right, versus to be doing something because our hearts are in it. And we know that God wanted us to be there. Yeah. And so yeah, for sure. And that has been big; I would say, a big breaking point or a big turning factor. A big pivot for me is that it’s not living out your faith is not about the checklist and doing the things that a good Christian girl should do; it’s about a relationship and that God desires most to have our hearts and know us and to have us want to know Him. And then everything else is kind of birthed from that.

Paige C. Clark 43:52
Yeah. And I think too, like, I think there’s like three categories of this. And I actually find myself very often in the I don’t feel it; I think, there’s I don’t feel it, there’s the I’m doing this just for looks. And then there’s the I’m doing this because I, you know, want and feel to do this. And I think you know if that makes sense. There’s kind of like three buckets because as you’re talking, I’m like, you know, there’s the discernment that must happen between like, I’m doing this for performative sake or, or I’m not doing this, because I don’t feel like it. But then part of me is also like, I also often do not feel like going to church, for example, or what have you.

Gena Anderson 44:40
Yeah, and that’s, that’s very discerning too because that’s not to say what I was sharing is not to say that everything that that we do, whether it’s with the church or in some other way, that in service and in ministry, whatever it is, everything we do is not gonna be something we want to do. I mean, there are some times that God is going to call us to do something that you’re like, I do not want to like, really, I don’t write that. But you’re sure that that’s what he wants you to do. So it’s not all about what you want to do. Right? But kind of what do you need to do? Yeah, and I think it’s completely okay, too; I think you can be involved. And you can be a member of a church community and be active and miss out on functions because you’ve worked all day. But don’t use that as an excuse every time. Like there was, there was a woman that came to my Bible study for years. And I use the term cane loosely because everybody knew Bible study; she would say, I’m so excited to see you guys again. And she might show up once, maybe twice. And then if every week she’d have a reason why she wasn’t coming, or that she had been too late or whatever it is. And so it’s not every time, you know, there’s, there’s a, there’s a commitment and a willingness to be present that I think is important and will lead to fruit in your life. Yeah, but you also can’t just keep if you keep pushing yourself to be there, for selfish reasons, honestly prideful reasons, then you’re going to exhaust yourself, and you’re not doing that from the Lord; you’re doing that from yourself. And so it’s not going to be free.

Paige C. Clark 46:37
Yeah, and it’s just, yeah, it’s just that discernment of figuring out kind of where it is. And I’ve definitely fallen into the trap of, like, especially with going into, like, small group, because I’m like, it’s at the end of the day, I don’t feel like I’m tired, like, but also, at the end of every week, it’s, I don’t regret going, you know, I always get filled up by the Lord for going and then on the other side of that, too, is I think, you know, again, this is where discernment comes in of it depends on what you’re doing and what your role is. Because with my small group, if I had an unhappy heart, I know that they are gracious and loving. And they would be like, okay, like page pages in a mood today, and like, That definitely happens. But also, these are the people that I’m doing life with. Whereas, like, you know, if you’re at a church function where there might be new people there, and you are just like in a really terrible headspace, you’re kind of like have the don’t talk to me. Sign on your forehead. Right. Maybe that is where discernment comes in. And like you decide to be back. Maybe behind the scenes that week. Yeah. Because we’re not all perfect. We don’t always have it together. But also we want people who are entering into whether it be a church or into the Christian world, you know, feeling welcome and feeling wanted there because they are. Yeah, yeah. Well, Gina, thank you so much for giving this glimpse of your life and how you balance everything because it sounds very difficult. And might you sound like a superhero, especially with those 5 am work? Oh, no. I always like to say like, yes, like, I get my best work done in the morning. But then I want to go back to bed after my best work done. There have been many times where I, like, I might wake up at like four, and I’m like, oh, like, I’m awake for the day. I might as well, like, go get something, go get some writing done. Maybe go to the gym, and then I come back home, and I crawl into bed and back asleep for another two hours. So the 5 am workout is very, very impressive. Well, if it makes

Gena Anderson 49:08
Do you feel any better occasionally on a Tuesday? I have actually done that. I’ve come back and gone back to bed for lunch. So there now you can feel that.

Paige C. Clark 49:18
does feel good. Well, I always like to conclude our podcast with what is one thing our audience can do and take away with this week to implement a faith-building discipline for their life.

Gena Anderson 49:32
So I think the best thing that we can do, especially as folks who work out in the world, I think the best thing we can do is ask ourselves what is our purpose, and as Christians, our purpose is always to go and tell the world about Jesus, right? But specifically, how do you do that? And how do you show the world who Jesus is and so So if you know that, then you can look at your calendar, for instance, and say, well, these things I can you can ask yourself when I go to work, how do I live that out? What posture am I going to have? How am I going to behave? What are things I’m gonna say and do with your family with whatever you’re doing? And you can also identify things in your life that maybe don’t align with that. And maybe those are things that you need to scale back or let go of if you can. And so I feel like identifying some somehow aligning with your purpose, what you do in your career, and figuring out how those two fit together. So for me, it was a game changer when I realized that I help people to live well. And I believe that through a relationship with Jesus and knowing his love for me, and my love in return for him, how that plays out, and how I live my life. But I can show people, my patients, that I take care of at work, I can show people as an example, and I can show them how to live their life well, and I can do all those things I was talking about before with listening to them. So just, I did, I think, identifying your purpose and asking yourself with each area of your life. How does this fit?

Paige C. Clark 51:28
Yeah, oh, I love that. It really resonates with me. And one thing that my church often says is, you know, as, as a as kind of an American western culture. If you want to know where a person’s affections are, look at their time, like look at their calendar and look at their wallet. Where are you spending the most time, and where are you spending the most money? That’ll show you where their affections are. And so I feel I hear a little bit of what you’re saying and that and that align your actions and your values with your purpose, and everything will kind of like shimmy into place there. Yeah,

Gena Anderson 52:11
exactly.

Paige C. Clark 52:12
I love that. Well, Gina, thank you so much for joining us. Where can our audience find you if they want to hear more from you? Read some of that writing that you’re doing and all that good stuff.

Gena Anderson 52:24
Yeah, thank you so much, Paige. It was so great to have this conversation. Thanks for what you’re doing. I’m excited to read more and hear more from you. But people can find me at Gina G and A Gina writes.com. That’s my website. And you can find me on Instagram, that’s primarily the social media avenue that I use, and so it’s Gina Anderson writes is my Instagram but Gina rights.com. And then my books are on Amazon, so you can search for my author’s name there. The good woman is one title, and no excuses are the Bible study on the book of James, so that’s where you can find it, and again, it’s been a great conversation. I’m so thankful you’re doing this. I think this is a great and powerful thing. Paige,

Paige C. Clark 53:08
thank you. Thank you, and all of those links will be in the show notes as well. So you have easy access to go find Gina and the good woman. I feel like I’m definitely going to like be on Amazon right after I finish things and this meeting, and going to buy that because it sounds like a wonderful read. So thank you so much, Gina. I really appreciate your time. Thank you

Paige C. Clark 00:39
Hello, Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Nine to five faith. I’m here with my friend Katie Axelson, Axel-son. How am I saying that right? Yeah, you got it. Axelson is it’s a little bit of a teaser with an L right next to an S.

Katie Axelson 00:55
Like you just don’t expect it. A lot of people flip it, and they say Alex, and that’s wrong.

Paige C. Clark 00:59
No, I saw you got the x right. That’s Axel. Yes. How are you doing today?

Katie Axelson 01:04
I’m doing well. Thanks. How are you?

Paige C. Clark 01:06
Good, doing good. Besides, you know, having that timely coughing attack, it’s okay.

Katie Axelson 01:14
Always right when it matters.

Paige C. Clark 01:16
Exactly. It’s like when the waiter comes up, and they’re like, asks you how your food is, and you’re like a mid-bite. But yeah, like, as I worked once upon a time doing service for food. And yeah, it’s definitely difficult to, like, time that perfectly because the tables always take up.

Katie Axelson 01:35
Well, which is a good thing. You want them to be eating their food. That is true.

Paige C. Clark 01:39
And it’s true, whether they

Katie Axelson 01:40
like a conversation, like

Paige C. Clark 01:41
quiet dinner as a good dinner because you know everyone’s going to be eating. That’s true. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah, so

Katie Axelson 01:49
my name is Katie Axelsson. I’m in my mid-30s. I’m single; I just moved to Austin, Texas. So my day job is in digital content. So basically, like website organization stuff, I host have Hopewell travel podcast, which is a podcast designed to create space for others to share their perspectives and their stories. So we can make the world a smaller place. Just like when we travel, we get to know people who are different than we are. And we understand things a little bit differently. So we stand with people instead of having opinions on issues.

Paige C. Clark 02:15
Yeah, I love that it makes the world a smaller place. Oh, that’s beautiful. And you’re sitting with a fellow like Digital Marketer person over here. So we are in good company. I love anything. Phil. So you just moved to Austin from where? Minneapolis, Minnesota. That is quite the job.

Katie Axelson 02:34
It is quite the jump, especially to do it in June. Yeah. Because Minneapolis is just starting to get gorgeous in June, and Austin is not getting gorgeous in June.

Paige C. Clark 02:43
Yeah. Yeah, I’m in Arizona, and it is stinky hot outside. But Texas is also humid. So

Katie Axelson 02:51
yeah, I went on; I had to check my mail in the middle of the day today. And it was actually gorgeous. It was like 89, And I was like, this is a perfect day. So all of my outside projects. I was like, Oh, I’m doing them right now.

Paige C. Clark 03:04
That’s perfect.

Katie Axelson 03:05
It’s gonna get to like 105. But yeah, that’s fine. It was perfect.

Paige C. Clark 03:08
Like 113 Here. No big deal is yeah, we are. So why did you move? That’s such a significant move. Yeah. So I moved for work. Okay. Okay. So is this a new job or just like relocating out of, like, kind of convenience for the work

Katie Axelson 03:25
relocating on convenience for the work? I, I was working remotely for a while, and then it just makes more sense for me to work hybrid.

Paige C. Clark 03:31
Gotcha, gotcha. And so kind of tell me a little bit about, like, what you do?

Katie Axelson 03:41
That’s a great question, um, that I don’t have an easy answer for. I like kind of in the project manager realm of digital content. So basically, my job is to make sure that we are doing what we say we’re going to do. And the type that we say we’re going to do it. And so it’s a lot of tracking people down, a lot of following up, a lot of, like, resetting. Hey, we said we have this for you today. We’re gonna have it for you tomorrow. We’re on it, you know? Yeah, those types of things. And so making sure I’m organizing communication. All right. Do you work for

Paige C. Clark 04:13
an agency? I do not know you work in-house, huh? Wow. The way you’re talking about it is like, I bet she worked for an agency. I’m

Katie Axelson 04:21
wrong. You work. I am one of the few house yeah, I’m one of the few house people. I’m

Paige C. Clark 04:25
an in-house person too. So for those who are not familiar, you can either contract out your work to an agency or you can do it in-house; sometimes, it’s a hybrid depending on the size of the company. But I’m an in-house person where I’m like I like to have one client focus on one brand, one voice, and all that good stuff. Exactly. Exactly. So project manager, which means, yeah, Ultra organized as well.

Katie Axelson 04:53
I think that’s the thing. I was freelance for a while. I started my career freelancer, contractors as a contractor, and it was fine. Like, I enjoyed that. But I also found that it was really hard to manage what I was writing at the time, the different voices between the different organizations. So like, I had one university that was very professional, very formal. And they actually gave me a desk that I showed up to. So it was very professional, very organized; here we are. And then I had one Christian organization that was very loose, like pretty, extremely loose within the Christian realm, like, let’s not get wild here. And I had a really hard time switching between those two voices, especially as I was, like, splitting my days, half day, or whatever. And I didn’t have an office to show up to. That was for the more loose organization. And I was like, Whoa, this is a trick for my brain. I figured out how to do it, but it was difficult. Yeah. And I would prefer to be in the house.

Paige C. Clark 05:45
right? Yeah, it’s definitely there’s definitely those I did a stint at an agency. And my boss slash, like, the owner of the agency was like, I hate. I would hate to work on the same thing every day. And I’m like, I love it. I love it. I’m a creature of habit. I love to work on the same things. Not because it’s redundant, but also it just I think, like, you know, you can really hone your craft and like, when you work in a house, like hone your voice, like really get to know your voice.

Katie Axelson 06:16
Yeah. So I always, and you know, like, this is how we did it five years ago. So we did it. 10 years ago. This is how we’re doing it now. Like you’ve been part of that journey. Yeah, all the way through, which is the benefit when you’ve been with a company for a while, versus a contractor is just coming to me like, Hey, this is great. And you’re like, No, we can’t do that we’ve already done.

Paige C. Clark 06:30
Yeah, yeah, for sure. It’s funny. My husband was just like proofreading, like a website page that I had built for myself. And he’s like, it sounds a little informal. But that sounds like you. And I was like, Oh, good. Like, that’s like what I want to come to work.

Katie Axelson 06:43
Yeah. So

Paige C. Clark 06:45
where in your faith journey? Did you like it? Or where in your work history? Did you find your faith journey?

Katie Axelson 06:55
Ooh, that’s a good one. So I started my career freelance, and I was mostly working for Christian organizations. So it’s always been part of my faith journey. Or my faith in my work? I’ve always been together, right? Um, I lived abroad as a missionary for a year, and I came home when I took my first secular job. And I, like, hadn’t switched my brain. And so very right away in my first introductory email, I was like, I love Jesus. And everyone was like, Whoa, that was like things Katie did ten years ago that she wouldn’t do again. It was fine. It was respectful, but everyone was respectful about it. But it still was a little bit more forward than I think they were prepared for. I’m kind of a what you see is What You Get kind of woman’s story. Right. So it’s always been part of my journey. And I’ve never really known, like, what that would look like, especially now working in a secular company, where I can’t talk about Jesus all the time. I can’t go on mission trips with coworkers like things like that just don’t happen. But I found that there’s still space to make it worshipful to like, honor the Lord in my work, do what He has called me to do, and be in the place where he’s called me to be. And the reality is, I get to spend 40 hours a week with people who are probably not ever going to step into a church. And I don’t want to speak that over them. And I have to hear that they have stepped into a church, but they spend 40 hours a week with me. I like Holy Spirit lives in me. And so here we are, and I get to pastor them in some ways through their hard seasons. And if nothing else, if they if we end our time together, and they’re like Katie was nice, I enjoyed working with her. I’m fine with that. But if they’re like, something’s different about Katie, and I want to know more about that, that differences, Jesus, let’s talk about it. Or, like, heaven forbid, they end up in some sort of a crisis, and they don’t know what to do. But they know that I’m pretty level-headed. And then, I will know the resources. Maybe they call me, you know, and maybe I can minister to them at that moment. Or maybe I can minister to them just on a hard day when they’re not feeling well. But I’m getting ahead of myself. We’ll talk about that later.

Paige C. Clark 08:57
I love that, though. And I totally resonate with the whole, like, I love Jesus because I got a job offer one time at a secular company. And like my instinct was like, Oh, let me take the weekend to pray about that. Like, that’s how I wanted to answer, and I was like, Paige, like, they don’t understand what that means. Like, they don’t speak that language. And so I like had to, like, now that I’m married, it’s like a really good kind of like crutch or like, let me talk to my husband about it. But like, really, I’m like, no, let me also talk to Jesus about it.

Katie Axelson 09:32
Right? Yeah. I will just say like, Let me think about it. And it thinks it is prayer. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 09:40
I love it. I love it. So what’s the most significant difference? Besides kind of working as a contractor versus in-house, but like for a Christian company versus a secular company? What is the most like Standing meaning like most in your face difference?

Katie Axelson 10:08
Somebody is going to cancel me for saying this. I actually think that, at least in my experience, my secular company does church better than my Christian companies. And what I mean by that is my secular company is very welcoming. They are very respectful of my I love Jesus, just like they’re very respectful of everyone else. And it’s a space where you can bring all of who you are to work. And in a Christian space, you can’t always bring all of who you are to work because there are some aspects of people that aren’t welcome in Christian churches, and I’m not even talking about, like, the extreme or like the political things like I know people who are divorced who feel unwelcome in a Christian organization. Yeah. And so being able to bring all of who I am has been so like, refreshing, and to be so respectful, and to be so like, willing to help. When I was moving from Minneapolis to Austin, I needed help with my house, but I actually didn’t. I mean, I did eventually go to my church friends. But I started with going to the team who was in Minneapolis; I was like, hey, coworkers, I need your help with this, this and this, and this, or I need to borrow somebody’s truck or saw or whatever. And they were all willing to provide it because that’s just kind of the community that we have as a company.

Paige C. Clark 11:25
Yeah. That’s interesting, too. And, like, I wasn’t expecting that answer. Because I think it also, like, it says a lot about, like, the company culture, also, as I would maybe argue to say, like, I don’t even know the company that you work for. But you can tell people who are more either religious or faith-based in some regard how they run their company is different than those who don’t. So like, you see that trickle down, to kind of create that atmosphere of belonging and acceptance. But I’d also say, like, that’s a rare experience where your Christian faith is more accepted because I will say, I’ve worked in the tech space for a long time. And that is not the case. Ballmer, so, but I am pleasantly hearing that that is the case for you, which is awesome to hear.

Katie Axelson 12:25
Yeah. I really enjoy it. And I think about, like, one of my bosses at a Christian organization. I had been traveling for work that weekend. And she’s like, Did you share the gospel with the person sitting next to you on the plane? I was like, No, I took a nap. Like, I don’t want to talk to the person sitting next to me on the plane. And just there was that, like, pressure and obligation? I’m not even working right now. I am on a plane. Right. And so there was none of that with my secular company. They’re like, Do you have a good nap on the plane? I was like, Yes, I did. And they’re like, by the way, I sent you an email while you’re on the plane, but you can get to when you get to. And I was like, thanks.

Paige C. Clark 12:58
Yeah, yeah, I think like, again, it. It does allow for a level of human humaneness. When when you do find yourself kind of in a secular company. Because as we were just briefly chatting, right before this episode, we were saying, like, you know, this perspective isn’t talked about. And like, I think that is because a lot of what we hear in Christian culture is from the pulpit, and people who, I mean, nine times out of 10, I don’t want to speak for every Christian church in America, but nine times out of 10. That’s their only job is to do the pastor thing and to do the ministry thing, which is great, but also, the rest of us don’t.

Katie Axelson 13:48
Right, right. And I think that, in some ways, it needs to be their only job because it is more than a full-time job. Like the pastors that I know are working 68 hours a week, there’s no possible way you’re gonna be able to, Yeah, vocational, but at the same time, like we need somebody who understands the workplace, to help us actually implement what we believe on Monday morning, like having a Monday morning faith, which is why I absolutely love your show, to be able to bridge that gap and to step in between the two.

Paige C. Clark 14:14
Yeah, and I think even just like the language that we speak is different, like, like you were just saying with like the playing experience, like someone saying, like, oh, did you talk to the person about the gospel like next to you like that conversation? While it’s important? I think that those of us who kind of work in maybe a secular workplace, not that it’s not a priority, but I think it’s a really big shift in our approach to sharing the gospel. We’re like people who work full-time in ministry. It’s like you can kind of get away with, like, being like Jesus, right?

Katie Axelson 14:54
For work. I’m a pastor. Oh, hey, let me tell you about Jesus. Right,

Paige C. Clark 14:57
like it’s, it’s an easier jump there. Versus, like, the language that we talk in the secular workplace is more so walking alongside people versus, you know, just kind of preaching at them,

Katie Axelson 15:12
I guess. Yeah, it’s all relational. Yeah, that’s, that’s where it is. It’s the people that I am spending 40 hours a week or more with day in and day out. Do I know what their kids are doing? Do I? Or do I know their kids’ names? Do I know that they go to their sporting events? Do I know about their spouse, like, it’s actually investing in them and then covering for them when they’ve had some sort of situation where they can’t do their work? It’s like; I can help with that because your kid is sick. Do you know? Yeah. My examples are about families. I have single coworkers, too, that I support.

Paige C. Clark 15:41
That’s okay. That’s okay. I just thought that the other day that I was like, Oh my gosh, I’m pretty sure every single one of my coworkers, besides kind of the one who came over with me to the job, like, have kids and are like, either married or divorced or some situation like that. I’m like, Ooh, this is like really foreign. I am a dink. I am classified as a dink nice familiar with Yes.

Katie Axelson 16:04
dual income, no kids. Yes, my friends,

Paige C. Clark 16:07
when they come over, when I had a few friends who were single, and they came over, and they looked at my fridge, my fridge of all things, and goes, Oh, my gosh, that’s a dual income fridge. Like, I don’t know what that means. But okay, like, Yeah, apparently, a dual-income fridge is definitely a

Katie Axelson 16:26
thing. But it’s a nicer fridge with different stuff in it. Yes.

Paige C. Clark 16:31
And I mean, you also brought up a good point of, like, the demographics of people you work with are probably significantly different than those you see in ministry. Because I would, I mean, I don’t have stats to I’m sure there are statistics out there somewhere that I would argue to say, to stereotype the crap out of people excuse my language, but I say crap. To stereotype the crap out of people is, I would argue to say most people in ministry are married with kids.

Katie Axelson 17:07
Yeah, I would stereotype that too. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 17:11
And so what you’re saying too, though, is like, not only are the people you’re working with outside of that stereotype but also, like, the way you minister to them is different. Right? Yeah. So what does that look like to you? I like to like to take my listeners through, like, a journey of, like, what your day a day in the life. Sure, that is what Kati looks like.

Katie Axelson 17:35
Yeah. So I would say every day is a little bit different. Because of just the nature of my work, no two days are ever the same. But generally, as a general guideline, I work remotely two days a week, and I work in the office three days a week. So it’s a balance of, like, getting my work done at home, but then also making sure that I’ve got relationships with my coworkers and getting the work done in the office. So I get up in the morning. And one of the disciplines that I’m not very good at, but I like to practice is from six until 730 In the morning, and at night, is no technology time. So I put my phone in the drawer of my bedside table so that I don’t see it first thing when I wake up, I do sleep with my Apple Watch on and so if there’s anything like emergency text messages, I will see those on my watch, and then can decide if it needs to be handled immediately. Or if it can wait until 730. Right. Um, so I see my text messages, but I try not to like to do anything with them. And so, like, Get up, get ready, like everyone else does. Try to spend some time with the Lord first thing in the morning. Now being in Austin, I’m learning that if I’m doing anything outside, that has to also happen first thing in the morning, and that’s making first thing in the morning very full. So kind of figuring out rearranging as needed there. And then I go to work, and I work all day. And then from six to 730 again at night, no more technology. And so, during that time, I tried to do something manually. I have heard the idea that if you work with your mind, rest with your hands; if you work with your hands, rest with your mind, and I work with my mind. And so I need to do things with my hands. Moving has had a great opportunity for that because I’m like, do I can paint this small so I can hang those pictures? I can do this, that, and the other thing, but sometimes means, something manual is just chopping vegetables, like something physical with my body or with my hands. In Minneapolis, I like to go for a walk during that time. You can’t do that here in Austin. That is the heat of the day. Do you not go for a walk from six to 730? No, but that was my favorite end-of-the-day activity. Yeah. And so just something to get me again away from the technology, away from the screen. I’m on a screen all day, sometimes multiple screens.

Paige C. Clark 19:44
As I get here with my iPad, my laptop, and my other laptop

Katie Axelson 19:47
on I have two computers, an external monitor, and a phone all on this desk right now. So yeah, I get it. I’m so stepping away from the screens. Like yeah, have that time away. And if I’m not feeling up to doing something manually, maybe I’ll read a book. During that time, I was just something a little bit different. That is away from the screens. And again, I’m not great at this. So don’t hear me saying I am an expert at this. But it’s a discipline. And it’s a discipline that I try to practice. And sometimes I’ll run errands during that time, or if there’s something that I’ve really been dreading, that’s not a screen project. That’s what I’d have to get on.

Paige C. Clark 20:25
And then, like timeframe, though, like six to 730, both in the morning and night. So you hear some people who are like, Oh, I do like, you know, just in the morning or just at night. And I like, though, like, anytime that falls between six and 730 is no.

Katie Axelson 20:45
I heard of a town, and I don’t know if this is true. I haven’t fact-checked us out on the internet. That’s really not true. But it inspired me. Apparently, this entire small town, I think, I want to say it was in Canada, but that might, it might have just been a Canadian individual that I heard it from. So maybe it wasn’t because the power is shut off in their town from six from seven to 830. And so, like, there’s just no screens from 7030. And so I tried that first, I was like, oh, seven 830. That seems to make sense. Except I also tried to wrap up whatever I was doing for the night at nine, so 830 to nine-time just wasn’t working for me. Right? And so that’s when I moved it earlier. And it’s closer to right after work, obviously. Do I leave work at five o’clock every single day? No. But if I hadn’t left work at six yet? Do I really need to stay? Or is it time for me to go? Yeah, so I have that discipline to have, like, Hey, I actually have to get out of the office at this point. Obviously, emergency, life happens, right? So it needs to happen, too. So it’s not a, not a law, right? Just a guideline rule. And so it’s a good time to be like, Oh, hey, it’s six o’clock, I need to go home. And so that’s why that time has worked. And then it’s if I do leave at five or 530, or whenever I leave, it’s a good chance to decompress from the day and to not jump straight into like my own podcast project, or things like that, because I could go straight from my work computer to my personal computer all night and just be fine with it. Yeah, and that is not good for my mental health. And I will feel the effects of that shortly thereafter. Yeah. So then six or 730 made more sense for me because then I can use it from 730 to nine-ish when I try to wrap up for the night to do my own podcasting stuff to catch up on emails and things like that. Sometimes my computer doesn’t get out again, like your email, for example, I saw it today it came in, but I just didn’t get responded to for a couple of days. All right, because I was trying not to be on my technology, and I was like, I will get back to the page; it’s just not gonna be immediate. And then, from nine to 10, I’m not as strict with the no technology thing, but it’s just better for your sleep hygiene if you’re not gone before bed. And so I tried to like read or spend that time with the Lord. But most of the time, from nine to 10 am, wrapping up whatever loose ends I have on the day. So not super disciplined about that one. But, um, that’s the goal. And then, in that time, at the end of the day, I tried to reflect on the day, and in different seasons, I need to reflect differently on that. So there was one year for Lent, I took the fruit of the Spirit, you know, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, all of those. And I wrote them out. Every single day I listed How did I see an example of faithfulness today? How did I see an example of joy today? Be it in my own life? Or in someone else’s life? How do they see an example of self-control today? Just those types of things. And sometimes, self-control is my sister had the opportunity to push my cousin in the pool, and she declined. You know what I mean? Like that’s still self-control. And so I still like to see an example of it. So some days, I go through all of them; that can be a project, right? So most days, I just go through what my word is for the year. So my work for this year has been generous. And so I look at, okay, where did I see an example of generosity today? The example of generosity I saw today was that somebody paid for my lunch. That was generous, that was unnecessary and generous, and I really appreciate it. So that’s where I got to see generosity today.

Paige C. Clark 24:04
I love that. I love that. And I think, too, like I always find that my mind starts just like reeling and going in like hyperdrive at night. Especially like I’ll start, I like to pray myself to sleep. I don’t know if this is a common thing. But I pray myself to sleep almost every night. But I’ll find myself like my brain will be like this if you I’m a hand talker, Italian, but like my brain will be on one path and then I’ll just kind of veer off and like go in the different direction. And so like just that discipline of like kind of emptying your brain at night, and it has shown to be like really helpful. Yeah. I love hearing. Yes. So how do you make sure that you fit in that one-on-one time with God?

Katie Axelson 24:56
That is a good question. And I think the answer depends on the day. Aaron viciously the like, good churchy answer if, like, you make it a priority. And that’s true, but at the same time, you make it a priority, and you fit it where it fits. Yeah, there was a season of life when I didn’t have that time in the morning or at night. It just wasn’t feasible because of the other situations in my life. But I had our lunch break. And so I would spend 2030 minutes eating with my coworkers, whatever, building relationships with them. But then I would spend the other 30 minutes off quiet somewhere reading or praying, or whatever it was in whatever quiet space I could find, which could be the elevator or like a back hallway, or like, wherever. I had people regularly be like, Why are you back here? And it’d be like, because I just needed some alone time because I’m an introvert, and y’all are a lot. And they’d be fair, you know? Yeah, and no, no one ever questioned that as long as I was where I was legally allowed to be there, like, Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. I, because otherwise, people are gonna ask me more questions. When I’m on lunch right now,

Paige C. Clark 26:00
I would always do hard naps. Although it’s hard to do in the summer, you just run by air conditioning and pay for gas later, car naps. And then, like, the time I was in the office, I would take desk naps, if my coworkers were, like, not around, like crawling or my desk and like take a nap. That was

Katie Axelson 26:20
people who have office doors have a luxury in that regard. Because they can just close the door or the blinds or whatever. And just like turning off the lights.

Paige C. Clark 26:28
Take a snooze. It’s true. I mean, I had a cube. So I would even do it there.

Katie Axelson 26:34
That’s it. They haven’t told that at a cure.

Paige C. Clark 26:35
Or if you have meeting rooms. My sister, my nephew, was trying to call me to ask if you have meeting rooms, and you book a meeting room, and then just like, shut the door and turn off the lights in the meeting room. It’s a good idea. Definitely done that before. Just yeah, have a little decompression time, have a little quiet time. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Katie Axelson 27:02
I kind of just figure out where my coworkers are and be somewhere where they are not.

Paige C. Clark 27:06
That’s valid, I think, I think too, and it like depends on the workspace and that you’re like, working in and like being surrounded by like, the types of people like are they all introverted? Or are they like, I mean, it’s marketing. So most people are extroverted,

Katie Axelson 27:22
you’re all extroverted, and they’re all creative. And they all drain me at the end of the day. I love them. Yeah, they are my people. But I need to get away from them. Sometimes,

Paige C. Clark 27:31
yes, I’m definitely, like, an ambivert, where I’m like, 5050, where I’m like, I can like, nerd out and like, go like so extroverted. But also, at the end of the day, I’m exhausted, and I need like 15 minutes of quiet time,

Katie Axelson 27:48
I need a mix of both. This is why I try not to take my work-from-home days consecutively. Because I need to not be by myself for too many days in a row, but also not to be with people too many days in a row. So the hybrid work schedule is perfect for me.

Paige C. Clark 28:01
That is awesome. That is awesome. That is like you have that level of self-awareness. Yeah, it works. So how long have you been in Austin now? Like, a month, a month? Awesome. Um, and I mean, I’ll ask this question. But I also like asking you and knowing that, like, you are probably still like very much getting settled in. But, like, Have you been able to find a church where you’re at? Like, have you been able to, like, get connected in that community? And, like, what is that looking like for you right now in this season? Yeah,

Katie Axelson 28:31
great question. So this exact season, I’m church shopping, which no one likes. Right, right. It’s the worst part about moving. I don’t know if that’s true. There are a lot of worst parts about moving. But it is still a discipline to make sure that I am showing up to church every week. One of the churches in the Minneapolis area is called Creative church and has this thing. Called they call the three-visit challenge, where they encourage you to visit the church three times before you make your decision on if you’re going to attend that church. They don’t need to be three consecutive weeks, I don’t think, but like the theory is, if you go once and there’s a guest pastor, you don’t really know what the church is like, right? If you go, like, maybe it’s a fundraiser weekend or something different is happening this weekend, like, free gives you a good feel for what the church is like. And so I’m trying to take a three-visit challenge with churches that I’m seeing. Sometimes I know right away, hey, this isn’t gonna be it. But sometimes I’m like, Okay, this was this wasn’t okay, church. Let’s try it again. And so, I did a three-visit challenge with the church and wasn’t thrilled with it. So we’re back to square one of starting over, but it took three visits for me to decide, visit one, I was like, it’s a five out of 10. Is it two? I was like, oh, it’s an eight out of 10. I like that and visit three. I was like, nope, three out of 10. We’re done.

Paige C. Clark 29:48
Goodbye. And then, you know, a lot of that comes with like discernment and you know, understanding like there is a very large church out by me and I did not need to go more And then once to decide like, yeah, pastors should probably not be preaching solely from the message. Like, that’s just true. You know, my opinion on that. But one thing that like I will say is not necessarily that, like, the pastor always needs to be on point every time. But when my husband and I were trying to find a church kind of like out here, we’re in the east valley. I just watched a bunch of sermons online from a bunch of different pastors. And I was like if it doesn’t, like, not necessarily at the message connects, but the way that it’s delivered and their speaking style and their teaching style, if it doesn’t land and it doesn’t connect, I’m like, that’s going to be a no for me.

Katie Axelson 30:47
Yeah. That is one of the beauties of the internet is that you get a chance to explore different churches. I always have to be careful because I’m like, Oh, I went to church online as it counts. Oh, yeah. Does it count? First of all, what are we counting? Second of all, like, your Church Online is not going to bring you a meal when you’re quarantined with COVID? Like, yeah, that’s an old example now. But yeah, it’s still the reality of, like, they’re not going to be there for you when you need them. Or just Sure. Making sure that you’re also going. Oh, yeah. So like, there are a couple of churches that I visited online before I moved, obviously, and yes, moving, that I’m like, I don’t need to visit that one in person. But there are people that I was like, oh, I should visit this one in person once I get

Paige C. Clark 31:24
there. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I completely agree. When I was shopping, I would like, take a day and just like, find all these different sermons from all these different churches and just watch them and be like, Okay, maybe this is one that we want to, like, go and visit and everything like that. And I think, too, it just depends on, like, teaching style and all that stuff. So right. Now,

Katie Axelson 31:45
I’ll also say like, I’m very comfortable in most churches; I can do high church, I can do low church, I can do it all. But I’m not truly. What does that mean? How high would the church be, like, more formal? Okay, church, I call, like, Robe kind of churches, more of your typical nondenominational church.

Paige C. Clark 32:02
I heard it put like that before. That’s why I had to stop you. Oh, no worries. Fascinating.

Katie Axelson 32:06
Yeah. So I’m comfortable in the more traditional churches, the less traditional churches, I’m comfortable in all of them. But I’m truly at home and very few churches. And so knowing that about myself, I’m like, well, I’ll just go where I’m invited. And so that’s how the church that I visited got three visits because a coworker invited me, and then a different coworker invited me to that same church, which I will say was the coolest thing. Getting to worship with my coworkers is an experience that I have never had before. Especially my secular college secular company. Yeah. And so to realize, okay, first of all, there are other Christians here a second of all, like, they know that I’m a Christian. And so they invited me to church. And now, here we are in this pew. And then there they are on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, whatever day I see them, like, is the coolest thing. And so, in some ways, that’s one of my priorities right now is like, okay, if I’m comfortable in most churches, how do I find a church where there are some coworkers that I can be worshiping with every week?

Paige C. Clark 32:59
Yeah, yeah, that’s really cool. And I think too, like, like, for me instantly. I’m, like, not close with my coworkers. Like, it just like made me kind of clam up a little bit at that thought because I’m like, oh, that’s like a very, almost like, intimate way to get to know your coworkers is to worship alongside. It is. Yeah, it is. So that is a risk, but also, like, again, it’s a high reward because then you are familiar with the types of people that you’re working alongside. And, you know, they kind of are raising their hand, and you can raise it back.

Katie Axelson 33:36
Exactly. Give him my five. Or you can make it awkward.

Paige C. Clark 33:41
So you mentioned something earlier that I want to go back to, and it was this idea of having a Monday faith and being a Monday Christian. Yeah, I care more about that.

Katie Axelson 33:54
Yeah. So being a Monday Christian is really just like believing what you say you believe on Sunday, also on Monday. And so it looks like your faith is showing up in your workplace. And it doesn’t need to be flamboyant and outgoing, and you don’t need to be sharing the gospel with the person sitting next to you on the airplane. I think we’ve already established that’s not my cup of tea. But it does look like still believing it on Monday. And so sometimes that looks like being like I can’t be part of that project because It doesn’t align with my values. I can’t be part of that project because it doesn’t align with my ethics. I would rather you ever.

Paige C. Clark 34:29
Yeah. And that. Yeah. Yeah, rally. Okay, I didn’t mean to cut you off because

Katie Axelson 34:37
I was fine. It’s fine. I can’t go into too many details about how I did it or what I did, but I do have to stand up for what I believe in that way.

Paige C. Clark 34:43
That’s amazing. Okay, keep going. Yeah, fascinated.

Katie Axelson 34:47
That’s okay. Um, so, yeah, just still believing what you believe and still acting like you believe what you believe and what that looks like and how you carry yourself, how you talk about your coworkers, how you talk to your coworkers. Um, do you believe in them? Do you believe in them doing their jobs? Well, can you support and encourage them? Even when it might be difficult? Like even when they got that promotion that you really wanted? Are you going to be the first person to congratulate them? Or are you going to give them a high five? Are you going to pray for them, whether they know it or not? I have been able to pray for coworkers at work, coworkers who don’t even believe what I believe. So, for example, one of my Jewish coworkers wasn’t feeling well. And he knew I was a Christian. I knew he was Jewish. But I still was like, Hey, would it be okay if I prayed for you? And he was like, Yeah, sure. And we didn’t have private space to have gone to, to pray. So I just asked him a lot of questions. And then I thought, Okay, well, what’s the common ground of our faith here? The common ground of our faith here is Yahweh God. So I just prayed to God to heal him. Yeah, you know, and I, Jesus, is the difference in our faith. And so I didn’t bring up Jesus in that in that particular conversation. While, of course, that is also who I’m praying to. I focused on the commonalities of our faith. Yeah, we just asked God to heal him. Amen. You know, and he did still end up going home sick that day, but he made it a lot further into the day than we thought he would. And so just being able to see moments like that is like, everyone knows that I’m a Christian. So sometimes faith questions just come up in the course of life. Yeah. And I’ve been the resource that they’re comfortable coming to. Yeah. And then it also looks like learning from them. There have been plenty of I don’t want to make this a polarized conversation here. But planning hasn’t been controversial over the last several years. Yeah. Especially living in Minneapolis. Right? Yeah. Which is where George Floyd was murdered. So like to be able to hear all these Christians saying, well, all lives matter. Why do you just say black lives matter? But then to actually sit down with someone to say, okay, yeah, all lives do matter. But it’s the black lives that we’re risking right now. And so, what does it look like to actually support our friends of color? Our black friends are whatever term that they prefer friends to support them in that, and I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I hadn’t thought about it that way. And so it’s the chance to sit down and actually learn from them. Which is actually where my podcast came out. And, um, the shameless plug was from a conversation like that. Yeah, it happened to be with a Jewish coworker about what it was like to be Jewish at Christmas time. And so I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, people need to hear this. Will you come to my show? I had just as a baby podcast. I did like three episodes yet. So I don’t even know what it was about. I was like; it’s about Jesus. Well, no, apparently, it’s not. I mean, it is, but it’s not. Yeah. And so I brought her on the show and was like, hey, talk about what it’s like to be Jewish at Christmas time in the month of December? How can we be respectful of your faith while art is right in your face, right? And so it’s made me more conscious and more aware of that. And now, almost 100 episodes later, we’ve talked to a lot of different people about how we can be more supportive of their perspective of their life story. And we’re not afraid to talk about the hard things. And I think that’s where it comes from. What does it look like to actually listen? Yeah. And there have been times in the show where I’ve wanted to contradict somebody because I don’t believe what they’ve said, or I feel like what they said is, is heretical or not supportive of Jesus, but I’ve had to sit there and go, Okay, I asked them to come on my show to share their perspective, I can’t ask them to come on my show to share their perspective and then tell them they’re wrong. They’re disrespectful. Yeah. So I just have to roll with it. And try to find, again, the common ground. So if somebody has said something that I don’t believe, I don’t believe 90% of it. But if I do follow the 10%, I will latch on to that 10%. And I will acknowledge, like, what they have said that I do actually believe and reinforce that. And then sometimes let the rest of it either roll off or be like, Oh, I have to think about that. So it’s I don’t want to say the show is the same way. I live my life. But it’s a very, like, similar mentality.

Paige C. Clark 38:49
Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say, like, it’s talking about your mindset that is kind of reflected in what you do in the podcast. Yeah. So in all of that, how do you cling to capital T, truth, and all of that, because I hear what you’re saying of like, okay, let’s find common ground and all that stuff. But at that, like, this is just like my own internal, like dissonance going on of like, okay, but there is absolute truth. And that’s not to say we shouldn’t hear the stories of those people. But how can we hear them and also proclaim absolute truth at the same time? Yeah.

Katie Axelson 39:33
I think it looks like admitting that we don’t know everything. And we don’t know what we don’t know. And that’s the beauty and hearing their story. So I start with listening to understand, asking questions to understand to hear their perspective. And then I take a look at, okay, what is God say? What does the Scripture say? What have I always believed? This is my interpretation of the Scripture. Like in alignment with the Scripture, I But what the Scripture has actually said? Or is it what I’ve always heard us talk about this Scripture? And sometimes I have to say, I don’t know. Like, Scripture can be interpreted in so many different ways. And I’m not saying like Unitarianism here, like, there’s one way, truth life, his name is Jesus. But also saying like, there are some things that I, people who read Scripture, interpreted differently than I do. For example, I had one of my good friends on the show who is a gay pastor. And I was like, Okay, help me understand. How do you read Scripture in alignment with what you believe in who you are? Helped me understand. And it was insightful to me, and I still have a lot of questions; there are still a lot of things that I don’t understand. But it’s not my job to tell him or anyone else that I think they’re wrong. That’s Holy Spirit’s job; I’m supposed to, like, hold myself to the standard that is true. And to love them and care for them the way that God would love and care for them. And let him handle the details of what that looks like. And that may not mean that I’m supporting everything that they’re doing. It may mean that I’m opting out, like I said earlier, like there have been work projects I’ve opted out of, and there have been social events that I’ve opted out of. Yes, I’m not supportive of that support of that. But at the same time, it’s like, well, what does it look like? What can I support? Yeah, yeah, I can support going to happy hour; I can show up at happy hour; I will not be doing three rounds of tequila shots where I’ll show up to a happy hour. Those kinds of things.

Paige C. Clark 41:22
Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. And yeah, I think to, like, just understand, man, I just like to want to go listen to these episodes because I’m, like, so curious. I’m like, oh, what? What did this pastor say in and about everything? And because I have heard kind of the full range of arguments and everything. I think my question to you, and this is getting, like, very theological. So like, stop me; I don’t want to go down this route. But where does it cut? Like, where does the Scripture, and the only reason why I’m bringing this up is because I like it was on top of my head yesterday. So in terms of like, when Scripture tells us to rebuke our neighbors, right, like, how do you balance that with like, like, it’s not them to it’s not my place to tell them that they’re wrong when Scripture does tell us to like to rebuke people.

Katie Axelson 42:18
Yeah. So I think it takes a look at, like, what is the context of that particular rebuke? And so, like, the one that I’m thinking of, oh, I wish I had a Bible within arm’s reach. I’ve got all these technology devices. And I don’t have a Bible here. But the one I’m thinking of is the one in the gospels, where Jesus is like, take it to the person and take it to the church, take it to the community, those types of things. That’s in the context of a community that has asked for that type of accountability. Being part of a church, I’m going to hold the coworkers that I go to church with to a different standard than I do; the coworkers that I don’t go to church with, or the coworkers who don’t go to church, I’m going to hold them to a different standard, I’m going to say, hey, I don’t know if you realize you did this. But that wasn’t cool. You know, the same way, I’m going to say, Hey, I saw Jesus and you in that moment. And that was awesome; well done. Because we have that relationship because we go to church together because we share our faith, my coworkers who don’t go to church don’t share their faith; I can’t hold them to the same standard that I hold myself to because they haven’t submitted to the authority. That is Jesus.

Paige C. Clark 43:17
Right? Yeah, yeah, for sure. I was just more so curious about the conversation with, like, a pastor; I was really, I’m just gonna have to go listen to that. Because well, and not out of like, you know, drama, curiosity. But also, I think that, like, I think Christians have a habit of shying away from what we would like to call the fringe examples when really, they’re not so fringe anymore. Sure. And I think that, like, there needs to be an element of leaning into that and having those conversations. Because again, they’re not like, again, you know, there are a plethora of people who are out there who think it’s okay or not okay to have a gay pastor like what you know, like, I know what I believe, and what Scripture has, has revealed to me about that, but again, it’s not a fringe example anymore. It is very unfriending. It is very commonplace.

Katie Axelson 44:32
Yeah, it’s one of those things that we’re like, sorry, Siri on my computer’s going off. Let me make her stop. Yeah, I know. You didn’t know I didn’t want to try again. It wasn’t even talking to you. Like, as I’m church hunting, that’s one of the things that I’m being attentive to. It’s like weird. Is this church stand? Are they affirming? Are they non-affirming? How do I feel about what they are affirming? How do I feel about what they’re not affirming? How do I feel about their approach to this conversation? That is, like you mentioned, every Where do we go? Yeah, um, and just kind of weighing it with both hands and also being like, it’s not an issue that directly affects me. But how can I love and support those? Does it directly affect you? Yeah, like, what’s going to be empowering to them? Whether I agree or not is not the issue here. The issue is going to be how we love them like Jesus. Mm-hmm.

Paige C. Clark 45:21
Yeah. And I think too, like, I mean, just working in a secular environment. I think that within the church, it might seem fringe, but within a secular environment is commonplace. And so I think that is why maybe I feel that there is a little bit of a gap in regards to maybe not necessarily, necessarily how we should handle it, but or like, not what we should believe about it, but how we should handle it because I’ve run into that issue so many times. And I’ve told this story on the podcast before of like, this, this coworker of mine, was talking, or alluding to the fact that he went and did a drag show, and openly asked to kind of like a, like a group chat who wants to see pictures. And I sat there, and I’m like, Okay, I don’t know how to respond. Sure, in a way that is honoring to God. And like, what he said about Scripture, or what he has said about, you know, gender and modesty and that whole route whole different. Yeah. And I was just like, how do I hold both at the same time? And but like, also, like, not be dismissive or ugly or hurtful to my coworker? Yeah. And honestly, the answer was, don’t say anything. Sure. That was my answer was paid. You’re not gonna say anything until you have a clear direction on what to say? Yeah, I didn’t say anything in that situation. Because I didn’t know, you know, what? The proper way to respond would be to that situation. And so yeah, that’s it. Let’s happen.

Katie Axelson 47:28
Yeah, it totally does. And let’s even pull it back to a less controversial topic. Let’s think about even swearing, right? Yeah. My coworkers have had fruity language. Yeah, um, I have never asked anyone not to swear in front of me. Right. But at the same time, a lot of them will realize that I’m in the room. And they’re like, sorry, I was like, what? Why? Yeah, it’s fine. You know, I will even pull out a well-placed swear word. At the right time, you know, it gets attention. But it’s still about, like, I don’t want to live like I think I’m above them. I don’t want them to feel like they have to change who they are simply because I’m here. Right. And so, while it’s not going to be very I

Paige C. Clark 48:11
want them to change, but not because of you.

Katie Axelson 48:14
Jesus, exactly. And it’s not going to be every other word coming out of my mouth ever. Right? But at the same time, like, sometimes it’s the right word. Yeah. So what does it look like to not expect to hold them to the same standard that Jesus holds me to? Because Jesus isn’t holding them to that standard right now? Because they don’t know Jesus? If they knew Jesus, he would be holding them to that standard. And I had a coworker who was like, I’m trying to clean up my language because I just met Jesus. Can you hold me accountable? I was like, Absolutely, I can. But until he had asked me that, I had no interest in policing his words. Yeah. Yeah. I

Paige C. Clark 48:47
I think that’s a great example. And I ran into the same exact thing where she said, like, one of my coworkers said something in a meeting, and I’m like, I didn’t even think to think thoughts about. I was just like, yeah, like, okay, and then she, like, messaged me individually and was like, I’m so sorry. I’m like, Yeah, I don’t care. Do you? Like yeah, I say it to, like, write it, hey, it happens, you know, and like, I ran into that issue a lot when I was in college and realizing, like, a lot of my friends tried to hide things from me because they knew I would disapprove. And I feel like that’s a whole other conversation on friendship. But yep, you know, it happens, and it’s very commonplace, but I think too, like, it is an opportunity to set yourself apart from the rest of the world. We’re supposed to be of this world and not in this world. And you know, your coworkers will hopefully strive to have more. I’m gonna say this word, but I’m like grossed out that like I’m more moralistic behavior is the best way I can Say it. Not only around you, but it does, like, think of it, you’re spending 40 hours a week, if you spend half that time with one coworker, you know, that’s 20 hours of the week that they’ve decided to make more to make better decisions in their life that is more aligning to ultimately the gospel.

Katie Axelson 50:23
Which is awesome. Yeah, absolutely.

Paige C. Clark 50:26
Oh, Katie, I love this conversation. Any final thoughts?

Katie Axelson 50:31
Oh, goodness. Um, no, I think we’ve covered a lot of where my thoughts were; I think it’s a matter of living, living well, and loving. Well, yeah, that’s kind of what it’s all about for me. Listen, well, live well, loved well, and came up with that right now. Actually, I might not need to use that smile.

Paige C. Clark 50:45
and say it again. Listen, well, live well, loved. Well, there you go. There you go further. We are. I always like to finish off the episodes by asking my guests. What is one thing that our listeners can do this week to implement a faith-based practice to help them grow in their faith?

Katie Axelson 51:03
Yeah. So I’m going to talk about an app that I downloaded recently called one minute pause. It’s from John Eldritch, which is so great. It is like a one-minute meditation. There are also three 510-minute meditations as well. And it will send you a reminder on your phone to take your pause. You can pick the time or can do whatever you want. And so it is that reminder to, like, take a step back to reconnect with the Lord throughout the day, too. It’s literally one minute if you already have your headphones in and Your call is finished. But no one knows that. Hey, guess what? You’ve got one minute to do your pause. And to just take that second to breathe.

Paige C. Clark 51:41
Yeah, I love it. So one minute pause. Yeah, I

Katie Axelson 51:44
I think it’s just called pause. Oh, pause.

Paige C. Clark 51:46
I love that. I had a boss one time who anytime a meeting finished early. He wouldn’t say, like, okay, like, you know, back to work. You’d be like, Oh, great. You got 15 minutes, go do something fun, like, use the 15 minutes we’re already accounted for. So there’s that for the one-minute pause. If you already have your headphones, I love it. Take the pause anyways. Right. Katie, thank you so much for joining us now. Where can people find you and your podcast and hear these awesome conversations?

Katie Axelson 52:14
Yeah, absolutely. So my internet home address is Katie axelsen.com. That’s 8x e l s o n. And then Instagram, same handle Katie Axelsen. Pretty difficult. I know. I do have a Facebook Katie Axelsson writer. I don’t know how often I update that. So probably not the best way to connect with me, but it does exist. And the podcast is called have hope will travel. You can find the link to it on my Instagram on my website, or it’s on your favorite podcasting app. Episodes usually come out every other Monday but are in the process of moving, so it’s kind of like they come when it’s a situation right now.

Paige C. Clark 52:47
I love it. I love it. Thank you so much, Katie, and we’ll catch you guys next week.

Katie Axelson 52:51
Awesome. Thank you

Paige C. Clark 0:42
Hello, hello, everyone. I am here with my great friend, Cindy. Cindy, how are you doing?

Cyndi Staudt 0:51
I’m great. Good. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 0:53
I’m so happy to have you. And I also like love the little things behind your head, like this picture from your book. And then also, like, this amazing little tote that we have that says your words matter is so great. Reminder, I

Cyndi Staudt 1:09
like to look at that every day. Yes, I

Paige C. Clark 1:11
actually have it on my like, on my Yeti. That’s awesome. My little your words matter sticker. So all good things. Can you introduce yourself a little bit to us?

Cyndi Staudt 1:22
Yes, my name is Cindy Stout. And I am a recently self-published author of a process in progress. Yeah, it’s nice to kind of see that all come to completion after all the work. Yeah. I, I do a lot of different things. Workwise, which I think we’re going to get into, I read, I say I retired a year and a half ago from what was my full-time career as a wellness coordinator to just pursue things that I’m passionate about. Yeah, and it’s just been awesome to see how God has kind of taken that and made sure that I’m financially covered and just continues to provide in so many ways. So

Paige C. Clark 2:06
that’s what’s so awesome. So tell us a little bit about the book. I know about it, but tell our listeners to share it.

Cyndi Staudt 2:16
So the book, like, I said, is called Princess in Progress. And it is about pursuing and proclaiming your identity in Christ. And it’s really the journey that I personally went on after my second divorce. And realizing I just had no clue who I was, I looked in the mirror and didn’t recognize the person. And God took me on a journey of searching the scriptures and seeing what he says about me. But then he had me write all these verses out into a biblical affirmation. And he told me I needed to say them to myself in the mirror every day until I believed them. And so that’s kind of the journey; I take people on just some of the things that I discovered during that journey. And I encourage them to do the same.

Paige C. Clark 3:02
That’s awesome. And how long have you been working on it?

Cyndi Staudt 3:05
Oh, gosh, it from start to finish? It probably about three years it took. Wow.

Paige C. Clark 3:09
Yeah. So just recently retired, meaning you are also writing and working on this while you’re also working?

Cyndi Staudt 3:17
Absolutely. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 3:19
Tell me. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that.

Cyndi Staudt 3:22
Yeah, so I started working on it probably about nine months before COVID happened. And as I was coming into the end of 2019, I was just praying and probably grumbling a little bit to God, like, I don’t have time, I have no time to write a book. And. And so then he coming into 2020, he was like, I want you to cancel your cable, your spare, you know, my Spectrum cable, he’s like, cancel that. So you have some time. I’m like, Okay, and so I did that and still wasn’t really making any progress. And I was just like, I’m just too busy thought I’m just too busy. And then COVID happen. And so I was working as a wellness coordinator for a large hospital system here in the Orlando area. And they had this; they called it redeployment during COVID. And so you sign an agreement, and they will pay you your normal pay. And you agree that if they need you somewhere else in this hospital system, within two days of them contacting you, you will go and work wherever they asked you to go work. I was like, Sure. So I mean, I’m a wellness coordinator. I’m not clinical. I’m not a nurse. There are not a whole lot of places they can use me, right? So I’m getting paid my normal pay, not having to work, and still not making progress in my book. I’m like, Okay, let’s look in the mirror and see. Oh, yeah, who was the problem here? It was really an interesting time with God and me, and it just hit me very tenderly, showing To me like, Okay, we have to make a plan to make this happen.

Paige C. Clark 5:03
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, like, really beautiful, too, because that’s God showing up and affirming what you were already working on. Right? Because, like, he allowed and made for those things to happen in the place, right? Like the resistance, no offense was within you. Exactly. Yes. And then God showed up. Right? Like,

Cyndi Staudt 5:37
like, I don’t have anyone else to blame anymore because it was, like, I was too busy with work. And then he took that, you know, and I’m like, at nighttime, I have to do all the things at home and then realize, Wow, I do spend a lot of time, like, even if I’m folding laundry watching TV, it’s like slow because I’m paying attention to the TV shows that away. And then oh, well, I’m, you know, I have all these things to do after work and, and then actually getting paid and not having to work. I was like, Oh, my, I don’t have any excuses. I have a lot of time, and I’m still not really making progress. So it was really good. to kind of get that settled.

Paige C. Clark 6:13
Yeah, I think I think as difficult as the past two and a half years have been for people, I think it was also kind of own an awakening for a lot of other people in, in so many different ways. For me, it was like a lot of about, like, being self-sustainable. And like, like, I got my garden going and like doing those things of just kind of getting back in touch with my roots. And then for other people like yourself, it was like, No, this is a time of freedom for you.

Cyndi Staudt 6:45
Yeah, and it really made me when I, when I went back to work, you know when they called us back. I only had to go into the office two days a week where I had to be there five days a week prior, but I realized, you know, I I really enjoy working from home, like, I wasn’t sure I would, but I was like, I really enjoy it. And once I got that sorted out with God, I realized I could be really productive. And when I need to, I can; I can leave home and go to a coffee shop or somewhere to work and get a change of scenery. And so I think that was just like the beginning of me realizing, like, I’m gonna be okay if I leave my job. Like, there are a lot of things I thought I needed from that job that I did.

Paige C. Clark 7:26
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think too, then when I talked to people, I say, they asked like, Oh, what do you do? And I’m like, hey, well, what answer do you want me to do? Oh, a lot. Oh, like, I can go down the list. Or I can give you the answer. You’re kind of expecting I can do either one. All right.

Cyndi Staudt 7:48
That’s me too.

Paige C. Clark 7:49
So tell me a little bit about your journey at work. And I also, like, I realize with all these conversations that I have on the podcast. I also like need to ask, like, Where Where did work fit in in terms of your faith journey? Meaning like, Did you come to Christ? And in this new workplace, have you always been a Christian in this workplace? Or what have you? What did that whole kind of landscape look like?

Cyndi Staudt 8:20
Right? I did find, like, I was brought up in Church, but I had no concept of really having, like, a personal relationship with Jesus until much later in life. And so I was saved before I started that job at the hospital. And it was interesting because going into that space and realizing, like not everybody is, right. And, and not everybody’s necessarily even receptive to you talking about it, or, you know, we’re having a company lunch, and I, I don’t ask everybody to pray with me, but I pray and realize that it makes people uncomfortable. So it was interesting to navigate that into; it’s really important to me that when people see me like that’s one of the first things they think of, oh, she’s a Christian, like she’s an authentic practicing, trying to walk the walk, which is the name of my ministry, someone that’s really trying to live out their faith. And I want people to know that, and so to be able to figure a way to make that known or in an atmosphere where maybe people are trying to keep that squashed a little bit, so yeah,

Paige C. Clark 9:37
and tell me like and educate me. I would tend to think that when like you’re you’re working in the medical field, you’re in hospitals to write. You said that, right? Yes. With hospitals. I would say faith is a little bit more appropriate in that setting. And correct me if I’m wrong. That’s like, that’s my stereotypical brain.

Cyndi Staudt 10:04
But I think that people these days are so worried about offending people. Hmm. Right. And so in organizations like that it, you know, large organizations, they’re, you know, they’re very concerned with making sure that everybody’s equally represented. And you know that we’re not showing favoritism one way or another. And so I think they’re just a little bit more sensitive to things like that. Which, you know, I understand, I guess, like, that’s the law and sunrise like they have to make sure that but like I said, like, it was really important to me to make sure that, you know, if somebody talks about Cindy, the number one thing they should mention is her face. So that’s because that wasn’t that way. Like, I have a history of drug abuse and drug addiction; I actually overdosed three times and woke up twice in the emergency room with the same emergency room nurse. And so, like, I was known for being one way. And now and I wanted to make sure that people not only saw the change but knew why there was; there was a moment when God, after I had gotten saved, I was a manager of a gym, and one of my employees came in to work on her day off, and she was sitting in the office and just kind of slumped in her chair. And it was like, What are you doing here? Why are you here on your day off, she started talking about some issues she was having at home, and she said, you know, you wouldn’t understand you’ve got your life altogether. And God, like, really convicted me at that moment. Like, you have to let people know, you know, where I brought you from, and that it was me that did it, and that I can do it. So

Paige C. Clark 11:48
that’s that. Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I think, too, that’s maybe one of the buckets that Christians kind of get put in is, is, you know, you have your whole life to get. I’ve lost friends over that before of people who think that my life looks perfect and ideal, and, you know, what have you and of course, you know, social, but it was a close friend, it was a close friend of mine and our friendship suffered because that was her impression of me when really that’s not true. For those listening. Cindy and I were just talking about how my husband is recovering from an operation to remove a cancer tumor. So I promise you life’s not perfect here. But yeah, that is a struggle. And I think to do that; I always struggle with allowing myself to be accessible to those people. And, you know, not people who would maybe fear speaking up in that regard, that that gal who was sitting in your office, you know, like that for I think for other people, that might be a fearful thing to say to someone, right? Like, your life looks perfect. That’s like, that’s a pretty bold statement to make this someone else, you know, right? Yeah. And so being able to have kind of that openness without glamorizing it, I guess, Yeah, is what I struggle with, too. So, what did it look like in your most recent job? What did it look like, kind of, practically for you? You know, you were talked about this woman who, you know, came to your office, and in you’re able to minister to her. But kind of on the I actually say, that’s probably like a fringe example; correct me if I’m wrong, like that doesn’t happen every day. That would be beautiful. It has if it happened every day, yes, it would be awesome. But what does kind of like the day-to-day look like for you in terms of practicing your faith?

Cyndi Staudt 14:19
So in that, in that job at the hospital, I just took every opportunity that I had to get my faith out there. So like, I’m known now for this mug that says, crazy about you. It’s actually the tagline for my Church, and they sell products. And so I just carried that everywhere we went our peak, we would come into a meeting, and people would say, Gosh, you’re always in a good mood, you know, and I’m like, That’s Jesus. That’s just the Jesus in me. And so, you know, it’s not that I was necessarily evangelizing, but I was giving the credit in the glory where, where it was due. And then there’s a scripture Titus 210, that says that we’re supposed to make the teachings about Jesus look attractive to others. And so I really, a few years ago, kind of took that to heart like, Am I making Jesus look attractive so that people that don’t know him want to know Him? And yeah, I tried to live that out and the way I did my job and the way I treated others, and, you know, if people started kind of grumbling or talking about other employees, I was like, Hey, let’s, you know, I tried to not be ashamed to just say, hey, let’s, let’s not talk about someone else, you know, that’s not here, and just really try to authentically live out the Gospel.

Paige C. Clark 15:44
That’s beautiful, too, because, like, I have so many things going on in my mind off of that, because I think to make Jesus look, you know, attractive and what he teaches attractive to people, I don’t want people to hear that and think, like, watering down the Gospel like that. That’s not what I think you’re saying. No, it’s; it’s more so making it approachable, right? And if you have kind of this humility, and you’re kind of walking in the way, hopefully, people want to walk the same way.

Cyndi Staudt 16:28
Right. And, you know, during that time I was there, I actually lost both of my parents. And so, you know, a lot of, like, the close coworkers, but even some of the, you know, in the larger organization saw me again, like, walk through the both of those processes. And, and I always just thought, like, you know, like, of course, I mourn them. But I also knew they were with Jesus. So there’s, like, Well, they both had cancer; I’m like, thank goodness that they’re not suffering anymore. They live full lives. They knew they were elderly. And, and so when people would ask, I was, you know, I’d be like, Yes, I missed them. But I would go on and tell them all the reasons why I could be joyful and I was happy. And I think that that’s, like, one of those ways we make Jesus attractive is that we handle normal life. Circumstances and problems, and issues in a different way with ideas from the lens of hope. And then the lens of Jesus.

Paige C. Clark 17:29
Yeah, yeah. And I ran into that with, with my husband, and his recent diagnosis of there was the human fear, just like, have the process, I guess. But God told me, months before this happened, that everything was going to be okay. And so I was talking to one of my best friends. And she goes, I was a little worried about how effective you were. Because you were, like, so chill about it. And I was like, you know, that doesn’t make me love my husband any less. But it helps me have as much hope in Jesus as I’m supposed to. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think when we’re able to model that out, it can reflect Jesus in a way that is helpful to people. And it’s funny when you said, making Jesus attractive, I immediately went to, like, kind of the beautifying of Scripture that’s happening. Like that’s where my mind went. And I was like, yes, because you also help write for seasonally present, which is one of the magazines that I am producing. And one of the kinds of core truths that I hold for this magazine is that it is imperfect but beautiful. And you know, you look at magazines right now, and you just see these, like, cookie-cutter kind of things that are like really, like, that’s nice, but that’s not me. Again, everything’s retouched and whatnot. But I just wanted it to be like, Yeah, this is, you know, it might be imperfect, but I still want it to be attractive and beautiful because I think that God created beauty on purpose.

Cyndi Staudt 19:32
Oh, yeah. And then him, and I mean, just the picture he paints for heaven. We know that beauty matters to him.

Paige C. Clark 19:42
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I mean, beauty is even talked about in Scripture and, and I think, correct me if I’m wrong, and I can’t pull the exact Scripture, but I know that there are some verses where it says said like, A woman would be blessed with beauty, or God blessed her with beauty. And so, you know, beauty is okay. So if you’re listening to this and you’re like, I feel like I’m too, you know, superficial, whereas there’s a line there, but also God honors beauty as well. I don’t know why that was important to me today. Yeah, but it’s true. Yeah. So take me through a little bit of, like, a life in Cindy, a day in the life of Cindy when it came to. Kind of your routine and your float. I’m sorry. Do you have kids?

Cyndi Staudt 20:40
I don’t, Okay. Two cats. Two cats. Okay. I’m divorced and single with two cats.

Paige C. Clark 20:48
Gotcha, gotcha. Because this always changes the conversation to have, like whether or not you have kids, I don’t have kids. So like, my life looks very different than my neighbor’s. Do they have kids? Yeah. So what does a day in the life of Cindy look like?

Cyndi Staudt 21:05
Yeah. So you know, when I retired from that full-time position, like, like you said, when people ask what I do, I do a lot of things as my Jamaican friends tell me, like I’m an honorary Jamaican because I have so many jobs. So day in the life of me, most of my mornings, I get up, and the first thing I do is Bible study. So I start the day with God. I would say on 80% of the days; I do my Bible study before I even touch my phone. And that’s really important because I realized, like, I get really tied up in that. So I tried to make that a focus. But I always start my day in the world in some way. Some days, I have a longer time, like I might have an hour and a half. On other days, it might be 20 minutes. But I have to start there; I absolutely notice a difference if I don’t, in how I approach the day and how I’m able to handle the day. It’s kind of like the hangry people when they don’t eat; I get that way when I don’t know, life and morning. I’m much more enjoyable to be around when I’ve met with Jesus first.

Paige C. Clark 22:14
Yes, I love it.

Cyndi Staudt 22:18
Yeah. And so then my mornings, one of the things I do to earn an income is teaching fitness classes and doing personal training. So most of my mornings are filled up with either teaching classes or training clients. And then I’ll come home and get into some of the other things that I do. So I am a content writer for a nonprofit that does work in South Africa. So I couldn’t do any writing that I had to do for them. I am a life coach and mentor for survivors of trafficking and domestic violence. So if I have sessions scheduled there, I’ll do those sessions. And, then, I do my working on additional books and coaching clients just kind of for myself, so I’ll do that.

Paige C. Clark 23:10
Wow, busy. And what does your kind of involvement in your local Church look like? And how do you make sure to kind of prioritize that?

Cyndi Staudt 23:24
Yeah, so I’ve been at my Church, my current Church, for about 11 years. And before that, I was at a nearby church. I was a youth leader there. So I was in youth ministry. When I came to this Church, it was after my divorce. And I got involved in women’s ministry, which I had not been involved in before. And about, I would say, a year and a half ago, they kind of did away with women’s ministry. They’re focusing more on just life groups, like they want people to have small groups and homes. And so we used to gather as women on Monday evenings. First, it used to be every Monday evening. Then, after COVID, it was once a month on Monday on Monday evening. And then we had a one-day retreat, which actually was really well attended, with almost 300 people. And then, after that, they kind of stopped women’s ministry. So I mean, I still attend Church there. Before COVID, I had started a women’s Facebook group for our Church. And my goal with that was to actually just bring women together virtually, but I have never been great with technology. So until COVID happened, all I really did was post here and there. And then COVID happened, and it was literally the women’s ministry leader at that time, the day they shut everything down, but like we got to start doing online, you know, Bible studies through Facebook, let’s go and like, it was like God, like, pushed me out of the nest. And so I started we still do a weekly morning devotional through that Facebook group. Have we just finished going through my books? So we do book studies online. And I always invite people to come to my house if they want to, but everybody just does Zoom now. So I stay involved that way. Even though we don’t have a formal women’s ministry at our Church, I try to keep the women unified a little bit through that Facebook group and page. So that’s kind of my serving, I say, my serving aspect; I think that would be maybe where I find the most challenge. Like, even though I know I’m serving in that capacity and what I do there, yeah, I feel like it’s not really serving. I don’t know why. And so I always have this, like, I guess it’s the enemy. I always have this guilt, like, I’m not doing enough to serve at my local Church. But you know, I’m still doing that group. And I will continue to do it. Because it’s a passion of mine. So yeah,

Paige C. Clark 25:57
I love that. And in terms of I haven’t asked this question before on the podcast, but I’m just kind of curious. So what do you say? What could Church Capital C do as a whole to help? Better minister to or support? People? I call them the normal people, the people who go to work every day, you know, the people who because you have a lot of, like, moms groups, and you have a lot of, you know, you have like, I don’t know, my Church has like men’s breakfast on Saturday morning. And I’m like, Yeah, that’s like all good. But like when it comes to, I guess, educating and mentoring and ministering to people who likelihood they work a full-time job as adults. Like, I feel like that’s kind of a gap, which is, in part, why I started this podcast, but right, you know, I think, like, it can also stem from the church community. So I’d love to hear your thoughts about that.

Cyndi Staudt 27:14
Yeah, I, I mean, one thing, I think we talked about this, and right at the writer’s community is like, if you want to know how you can serve people ask them, right? And I feel like sometimes the big C church will just make decisions without maybe consulting the people they’re making the decisions for. And I kind of think of the women’s ministry, when I at my Church, when I think about that, like women just love to get together, that face to face, like, we’re just that way. And so I know that a lot of women still struggle with the fact that we don’t do that as a group. So I think checking in with those who work like we have these prayer nights, we have actually one coming up; it’s a prayer and worship night at Church. It starts at 630. And that’s, I, in my opinion, especially like with traffic and people getting home and trying to eat and if you have kids trying to get kids, but that’s a that’s really a long shot at getting by 630. And I, I kind of, you know, I made a comment on the post about the event. I’m like, Hey, like, I personally teach till seven class till 715 on Wednesday nights. Yeah, I can’t make it. And, you know, I said, Hey, how long is it gonna go? Well, it’s only gonna go till eight. So I couldn’t get there. Maybe by 730. Suppose I push it and make half a half an hour of it, yeah. But I and then a couple of other people commented, like, yeah, till I get home from work. And it’s like, a lot of people just kept commenting the same thing. And so, and I know the same thing, like at our Church, they have once a month, they call it the gathering. And it was to replace the women’s knights and the men’s knights and things that we used to have. And it’s this gathering where they come together once a month on a Wednesday, and they try to get people connected. So they can start small groups, while again, I tell them, as I teach on Wednesday nights, every Wednesday night, if I am even to try to come to one of those, I would have to get coverage for my class. My work. And so it’s not a realistic, you know, force, even someone like me. And then I think about, you know, health care workers or we have I’m, you know, I’m around the theme parks, so we’ve got universal and Disney and stuff. So people have weird schedules, and you know, never they have days off and things like that. So, really, I think reaching out to the people that you want to serve and ask them like, yeah, would you like to see would you know, would you want something starting at eight o’clock at night? Do you want an early morning? Do you want lunchtime? Do you want a weekend? What would you like and really, Uh, you know, seeking out the input of the people that you are looking to serve?

Paige C. Clark 30:05
Yeah. I think you said a lot of good things there. And I, I don’t want people listening to think that like church ministries have to be geared towards everyone because you’re never like I work in PR. That’s, that’s a rule of thumb. You’re never gonna please everyone always like, that’s, that’s a general rule. But I think Cindy, and correct me if I’m wrong, but like, it’s more so just a general consensus. And you, you touched on a really important thing of, like, the community in which you live, right? Like, you’re, you’re with people who a lot, you know, a lot of the members of Church might work at the theme parks and have weird hours just because they live like, like I could imagine places out here, there’s kind of more industrial areas that have like a ton of warehouses, where I’m like, okay, like, how can you take people’s jobs into consideration when you’re building up this community and building church programs, and ministering to these people? Well, right,

Cyndi Staudt 31:10
that’s, yeah, that would probably be like shiftwork kind of like at the hospital. Yeah, if you’re not warehouses and factories and things like that. People have these set different schedules.

Paige C. Clark 31:20
Yeah. And also, like, if any of them are truckers, right, like, they’re, they’re going to be on the road a lot. And, you know, and I know, for it changes, depending on the size of your church community, but like, so for my Church, for example, I think they do a pretty fair, good job of, of making sure that there’s something kind of spanning the week. So we have, I don’t know, at any one point, like eight or ten classes going, I go to a pretty big church, like eight or ten classes going, and they’re all at different times of the week on different days. Some are in the morning, some are in the afternoon, some are in the evening, you know, and these, they ride that entire scope of time, because I’m like, Yeah, you know, they they have identified I, I would like to think it is intentional. But I identify that, like, hey, not all women can come to noon on Tuesday Bible study because those women might work to write. So I think, yeah, just knowing your audience, it’s a mark. It’s such marketing, and we talked about it in writing groups to know your audience, know your audience, and also just ask them.

Cyndi Staudt 32:40
Yeah, yeah. And I said, I, I know that my Church has a vision, and so on, understanding that maybe it’s not my preference that we don’t do women’s ministry anymore. But I’m not going to leave the Church because they’re not serving women the way I think they showed, like they Yeah, they absolutely have their vision that they have their plan, they can’t serve everybody, and do it well. And so I just kind of roll with it. But yeah, if they, you know, if they are looking to serve a specific group, they should definitely seek their input and find out what would what might work best for them. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 33:19
For me. Not necessarily that, like, oh, every, you know, sermon needs to be geared towards the working person. But I think that we talk a lot about family and home life and maybe missions and giving and serving. But how much of that conversation includes your work days? Right? Because I would argue to sail a lot it like, all those things are very important. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying we should skip over talking about having gotten your family. Right. That’s important. But we work almost more than we see our family during the week. And I think that you know, there need to be hard conversations had about, you know, how to balance it all and how to just have enough energy, emotionally and physically and otherwise, to get up and go to Church and serve and volunteer and take your kids and all of that stuff.

Cyndi Staudt 34:35
Right? Yeah, for sure. We spend so much time at work that even more and more like that, I don’t think of a right straight 40 Hour Workweek. There are a few people that probably have that, like most people, are working more than 40 hours. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 34:50
And I mean, I would say like I know very many people who have worked in full-time ministry in it Church, and y’all work your butts off too. But I will also add it comes with its own struggles and its own pickups. That is different than the working man, the nine-to-fiver. Right over there because y’all work weekends. And you know, you might have, I think some people do like, either we have Church on Saturday or Sunday. So I think people do Friday and Monday off or Monday and Tuesday off or, you know. However, it shakes out, but that’s different. That’s, again, that’s not the majority of people; I would argue to say the majority of people work for someone else. Right. So I always like this question because I think it’s hard and convicting. And also, I want people to know that, like, we’re not perfect, and like, as Christians, we struggle to; what would you say is your biggest struggle when it comes to practicing your faith?

Cyndi Staudt 36:05
I think for me; it’s because I’m single. And I do, you know, a lot of Bible study and stuff on my own. It’s finding community and practicing and Bible and doing Bible study and things with a community. It’s just it’s so much easier for me to get up and do it on my own. And then, when it strikes me, I sometimes will do it right before bed. So it’s easier for me to say, Well, I’m still in the Word, and I’m still going to Church. So I have to really be intentional and kind of tell myself that I love it when I’m doing group stuff. But it’s sometimes it’s like, it’s just easier for me to do it by myself.

Paige C. Clark 36:56
Yeah. And sometimes, like, I have a little bit of anxiety brain. And so sometimes, like, my brain makes it a lot bigger than it actually is, is kind of like going to the gym where you, like, Dread all the way up to it. And then you get it over with, and you’re like, okay, like, it really wasn’t that bad. Right? I had the same feelings when we had just a regular recurring kind of small group going on with, with some folks from our Church, and I had, like, I dread it. Like, at the end of my day. I don’t want to be social. I just want to go to bed and lay in bed and watch movies. But at the end of it, I like, I’ve never walked away from a home grouping like, oh, well, that was a waste of my time. Right?

Cyndi Staudt 37:40
I’ll never get that time back. Yeah, no, it’s never like that. But like you said, like, at the end of the day, you know, my morning? Well, most of my day, most of the things I do, like I’m teaching classes, so I’m talking all the time. I’m personal training people, you know, so I’m talking, explaining, correcting, I’m coaching because I’m like talking, talking, talking all day long. And sometimes I’m like, just don’t want to talk anymore, even if it’s about the Word I don’t want to do anymore. So yeah, so sometimes it’s like, I just want to go to bed, but you always feel better when you’ve done, yeah,

Paige C. Clark 38:08
see, I have the opposite problem where I’m like; I have to force myself to talk to people during the day. Because if I don’t, I’m not talking to anyone. Oh, well, like, my husband can’t currently talk. So now I really can’t talk. But, like, he’s often talking back, yeah, like, we’ve been texting a lot. Hey, it works. It works. But like he’s off in his office, I’m up in here in my office. We don’t have kids. We don’t live with anyone else. And I realized I’m like; there are some days I don’t even like going out. That has since changed since I blew my garden. But, like, there was a time, especially over COVID, Like, where I’m like, go outside today. I should probably change that. Or like I didn’t talk to anyone today. I should probably change that. Yeah, to work on that. I realized when I went started going to social events after the whole COVID thing happened, my voice would get sore. Like I am not used to. Right. I’m not used to talking about this. That’s awesome. Because I was working from home. I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t, you know, working with other people and all that stuff. And that’s, that’s yeah, that’s my opposite thing. But I could hear how you were talking all day. Not only like does that get tiresome, but it’s also harder to kind of like quiet and decompress after all of it. Right? Because you just kind of want to keep going. Yeah.

Cyndi Staudt 39:48
Back when I was married, I would get home, and, you know, my ex-husband would be like how was your day? I’m like, it was good. He’s like, That’s all you got. I’m like; I don’t want to talk anymore.

Paige C. Clark 40:00
And that’s huge and recognizing that as, like, your own boundary and, like, if you are married or if you have roommates or whatever, it is like being able to kind of communicate that boundary to them of like, Hey, this is like a limitation that I have right now like, and being able to not necessarily ignore their need to decompress from the day, but finding a solution between the two of those things,

Cyndi Staudt 40:36
right. Maybe I need a little timeout first. Yeah, yeah. But you know, it’s funny that when God had me, like, get rid of my cable and stuff, I realized that living alone, I would come home and just put the TV on and just to have somebody, like, some sound, because I didn’t have anybody at home to talk to, then yeah, it did serve as a distraction. And I realized, like, maybe because I’m talking all the time for work. Like I get used to having sound all the time when God, as he says, Is still. I can’t hear him. If I’m in, there’s constantly another input coming in, whether it’s my voice or someone else’s voice; as you have, I have to have times of quiet and silence.

Paige C. Clark 41:25
Yeah. And I realized I read something; I can’t remember where I read it. But would I wish I could remember, so I could give the person credit? But it was saying how you get to know the voices around you. And like, you know, your spouse’s voice, you know, your friend’s voice or whatever. And it is because you have spent time listening to them. And so, if you’re having a hard time hearing God’s voice, how much time have you spent listening to him? And that, like, really shook me; I was like, if, yeah, like that heads?

Cyndi Staudt 42:06
Yes. And I, you know, there was a time, there have been church homes where they, you know, there’s the philosophy that, you know, women can’t teach men or almost right, you know, men are kind of above us in the hierarchy, patriarchy. And so for a long time, I had this doubt when I would, you know, I’d be in my quiet time, and I’m journaling and getting stuff from God. And then I’d be like, oh, like, what’s that from you? And then, you know, sometimes it was the same day, I’d go to Church, and the pastor would speak it from the stage, and I’m like, oh, yeah, okay, that was you, God. And I wouldn’t believe it until it was validated by someone else. I got it that I was hearing from him until it was validated by someone else. And so I had this time, about a year and a half ago, where God really kind of solidified that for me like, Listen, I’m speaking to you. Yes. You know, my voice. You’ve confirmed it enough times now, like that. Do you hear my voice?

Paige C. Clark 43:06
Yeah. Yeah. And save you some of the lag time? Yes, I guess. And just getting God to move at the moment. And yeah, that’s huge. I think too, like, for me, when it comes to hearing God’s voice. It’s very, like, absolute. I’m writing a devotional right now. And it’s like, if you have to ask if it’s God for God’s voice, it probably isn’t. Like, if you question it, then you’re like, okay, that, like, God’s voice is absolute, at least in my brain and how he talks to me. So Right. Yeah, send me this has been lovely. I always like to wrap up with one final question for our listeners. And that is what is one faith-building practice that they can implement into their life this week to move them closer to God.

Cyndi Staudt 44:04
I think I like talking about my own experience in my own life that I had to make the choice to make my faith a priority. Whether it was my quiet time with him going to Church, you know, that weekly commitment to actually get in the car and go to Church and not get lazy and just listen from home every week. But I had to make it a priority. And there was a time when I coach people through this all the time, like I literally had to put it in my calendar and block off the time and say, like, this is my time. This is my time, and it’s an appointment that I have to keep, like it’s an appointment with my boss. He’s that he’s even a bigger boss, right? But right now, it’s just a habit. Like I get up and do my Bible study first thing in the morning. But we have to make that choice. Like God wants to spend time with us, but He doesn’t force us And that whole scenario of me like, I don’t have time, I don’t have time, like, I just was choosing not to make time. You know, and we make time and make time for the things that are important to us. And so I would just encourage, like, find a moment, find five minutes in every day that you can get with God if it’s a commute to work. I mean, the whole podcast, like a revolution, is amazing. Yeah. I just went away to did like a five and a half hour drive to visit a friend. And it was five and a half hours each way. Like, I just like to binge a couple of different podcasts. So yeah, and I remember when I had to go after war after COVID to, had to go back to work. I was working in an office that was about seven miles from me; after COVID, they made me go into downtown Orlando, which, like 22 miles, but like, it could be an hour and a half, depending on right. I was, I was not happy. I would come in just grumbling. And I was like, You know what? I need to, like, I’d listen to worship music, but it wasn’t doing it. And so I started listening to sermons on my way to Church. They just got me focused and got me in the right frame of mind before I got there. So, I was making use of that time, and I was just hearing from God that whole time.

Paige C. Clark 46:19
Yeah, that’s super special. When I had to commute long hours, I would always do phone calls to family. I would always call my husband; I would call my grandma, call my mom, call my sisters, and just talk to them because it was, like, an hour-and-a-half drive.

Cyndi Staudt 46:34
Yep, I used to. I would when my parents were alive. I would always call them when I was driving. Yeah, I would call my dad’s like, what do you do and driving like? Yep. Have you been on speaker? Let’s talk.

Paige C. Clark 46:46
That’s wonderful. Cindy. Thank you so much. Now where can people find you and find your book and give us all the deets?

Cyndi Staudt 46:53
Yeah, so my book is available on Amazon. It’s Princess in progress, pursuing and proclaiming your identity in Christ. I can be found on Instagram and Facebook. I use Facebook mostly, but I’m also on Instagram. It helps that when you post to Instagram, it goes to both, which kind of streamlines that process. And then, I have a business page that is walking the walk ministries, and it’s helping women to pursue an authentic and thriving walk with Christ. Walking the Walk Ministries is also on Instagram and Facebook.

Paige C. Clark 47:28
I love it. Thank you so much. I really am for having it’s been awesome. I love it. So go and prioritize God this week. Thanks for joining us. If you liked what you were listening to, make sure you subscribe and hit those five stars, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.

Paige C. Clark 0:41
Hello, hello everyone. I hope you’re having a wonderful day. I am excited to be here with you and one of my friends Mark David Poland. How are you doing today, Mark?

Mark David Pullen 0:52
I’m doing well. Thank you. How are you today?

Paige C. Clark 0:54
I am fabulous. It is hot. And I have my iced tea. Iced tea is my crutch during the summer. Because if it weren’t, I would drink an absurd amount of Diet Coke.

Mark David Pullen 1:06
Okay,

Paige C. Clark 1:09
I see it is my safe haven, and I drive absurdly far to get good iced tea to really what’s absurdly far, like a half hour each way. Oh, that’s

Mark David Pullen 1:21
Not too bad. I would have

Paige C. Clark 1:23
like an hour out of my day to get like $1 But

Mark David Pullen 1:28
I don’t. I drive that for a good cup of coffee. I don’t know if a half hours of thirdly far.

Paige C. Clark 1:33
Okay. I mean, objectively, I’ve had people like hardcore judgment you for, like, our little round trip area, to go get like two containers of iced tea.

Mark David Pullen 1:44
No, no judgment here.

Paige C. Clark 1:47
Well, much appreciated. So Mark, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? And what do you do, and what you’re about? Sure.

Mark David Pullen 1:56
My name is Mark David Pullen. I am a full-time building maintenance worker. Full-time Father, full-time husband, and aspiring full-time author

Paige C. Clark 2:06
as a lot of full-time jobs, Mark. Yes, it is.

Mark David Pullen 2:09
Yeah. And some of those hats never come off some of our building maintenance hats. I can hang that one up at 330. But the father and husband know those hats seem to work their way on and off the head. All throughout the day.

Paige C. Clark 2:21
Yeah. And even when you’re at work, you’re still husband and father. Yes,

Mark David Pullen 2:25
Absolutely. Especially when your wife is a teacher in the district you work in, and your kids go to school in the district you work in. So yeah,

Paige C. Clark 2:32
that’s cool. Yeah, that’ll do it. I always say so, me and my husband. We don’t have kids yet. And when people talk to me about it, I’m like, listen, I like kids. I adore my nephew and soon-to-be nice. But once you’re a parent, you’re not a parent ever again.

Mark David Pullen 2:53
You’re absolutely right. I

Paige C. Clark 2:54
am not ready.

Mark David Pullen 2:57
Because my mother always told me that you like you need to sleep a good night’s sleep. Because when you become a parent, like that phone could ring at two in the morning and you have to answer when you’re the parent. And I remember we were in the hospital getting ready for my son to be born, and my mom was like, this is the last good night’s sleep you’re ever going to get. She’s like, and it’s going to be a rough night. So you need to savor this. And she was 100%. Right? I don’t think I’ve slept well in five years, six years.

Paige C. Clark 3:22
I’m just dropping hardcore truths, right? But like, I’m like, even after, like, once, they go away for college or like on their own. You’re still a parent. Yeah, you’re not a parent ever again. So that’s my go-to line is like, I’m like good until I’m ready to be not never not apparent again. So you always wear that parent hat.

Mark David Pullen 3:47
Yeah, I get it. I understand. 100%.

Paige C. Clark 3:52
So tell me a little bit about your job.

Mark David Pullen 3:55
Well, like I said, I’m a full-time building maintenance worker for a local school district. And that’s pretty much all the excitement there is. I go in and move snow when it snows out. I go in and cut the grass when the grass needs to be cut. And then everything in between.

Paige C. Clark 4:11
Gotcha. Do you work on a team of people?

Mark David Pullen 4:14
I do. I’m one of six maintenance guys.

Paige C. Clark 4:16
Okay, for the whole district? Yes. Is that like too many people or too few people? Ah,

Mark David Pullen 4:23
I think we’re good. We’ve got three buildings we cover. I think I think we’re pretty good.

Paige C. Clark 4:32
That’s not bad. That’s not too shabby. Yeah, sometimes I’m like, it’s like it’s either like one way or the other. But like you’re hearing, something properly staffed is always a good thing.

Mark David Pullen 4:42
Yeah, I feel I feel like we’re good. I really do. Everybody has their own thing that they’re good at. So we’re a pretty good team. We’re more of a well-oiled machine, I’d say

Paige C. Clark 4:52
any, and you also mentioned snow which is like a foreign concept to me where I’m just like, oh yes, knows that schools such as Just in other places,

Mark David Pullen 5:02
And that’s one of those things all the teachers laugh at us on the way out the door. Haha, see it? Not tomorrow because we’ll be open. It’s no one’s like yeah, we’ll be here. But

Paige C. Clark 5:11
still shoveling that snow. At least, I hope you have more than a shovel.

Mark David Pullen 5:19
Thank God, knock on wood; we have more than a shovel. And you know, I thought we were gonna get away. Get away. Pretty good this year. But in the last three weeks, I think we were in for more snow removal than we had been the whole entire winter thus far. Yeah, my gosh. That’s great. We thought we thought we had skated by, and then all of a sudden, here we are, you know, every weekend movies now.

Paige C. Clark 5:41
Is there still snow on? Oh, no, no, no, no. Okay.

Mark David Pullen 5:44
We’re good. Thank God. No,

Paige C. Clark 5:46
I know. I know. Like up is in the mountains like it. There is still open. I think it’s still snowing up there.

Mark David Pullen 5:55
We’ve had snow this late in the year, but this year, thankfully not.

Paige C. Clark 5:58
Thank goodness. Wow, we’re really stereotypical and talking about the weather. I was like, Yeah, we actually talked about the weather, which is like really common for people who like to know I’m in Phoenix because then they’re like, oh, it’s really hot there, isn’t it? I’m like, Yes. Like It’s Hot. Like,

Mark David Pullen 6:18
That’s the good seasons, the hot ones. Everybody likes the hot season. No,

Paige C. Clark 6:23
not 120 degrees, like, Yeah, it’s funny, though, because we make national news. And I’ll have, like, my dad calling me to be like, Hey, I saw Phoenix is on the news. Are you okay? I’m like, Yes. I also have air conditioning and cold water. We’re gonna be here, apparently. Yeah, apparently, our heat waves make national news. Cool. So what does a day in the life look like a day a week, kind of how you move throughout your day and spend time with the family and do the husband duties and all of that good stuff?

Mark David Pullen 7:00
Well, a day at work. Really, the beautiful part about my job is that it’s different every day; there’s no way to settle into a routine because you could think you’re cruising into an easy day, and then the phone rings, and all of a sudden, you’re up to your elbows and could be anything you just you never know. So it’s eight hours of that. And then then I clock out at 330. My wife gets done at about 315. So we have the luxury. I live we live seven minutes from where we work. So we get to carpool. We carpool every day, we meet at the truck, we go pick up the kids, and that’s when the evening starts. You know, that’s when real life for me standards I should, you know, it’s pick up the kids, it’s dinner, how was your day working on homework, you know, family stuff, Dad stuff, you know, some you know, some nights, I got to cut the grass, some nice things have to get done. But we try to do as much as we can as a family. You know, that’s what’s really very important to me, incorporating as much as I can. With them. Yeah. So

Paige C. Clark 8:06
and how do you kind of fit in? Like, what is your involvement with your church community look like? You know, are you guys involved in any way? Is your do you do it on your own? You know, what’s that look like? For you?

Mark David Pullen 8:24
Sure. We actually just became new members two weeks ago to a new church that we have been going to for a little over a year. So we’re excited about that. Yeah. You know, great kids programs, Sunday mornings, you know, super excited about that. And it’s we’re looking forward to what’s ahead. For us, with that, in always, it’s always exciting to find a place where you can put your roots down and call home, and we’re very excited about that. Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 8:50
Yeah. And what does kind of like is it just Sunday for you guys? Or is it throughout the week or what?

Mark David Pullen 8:59
Right now? Right now, it’s just Sunday. We are. Actually, we’re about 50 minutes from okay. So, you know, by the time we get out of work and get things situated, we’re pretty whole for during-the-week stuff, but actually, eventually, we would like for them to be a little more flexible there. And that’s kind of gold we’re working towards, but for right now, yeah, it’s Sunday mornings.

Paige C. Clark 9:22
Yeah. So tell me a little bit about, like, what your one-on-one time looks like with God, and how do you find the time with everything that you have going on to make sure that you spend that intentional time with God?

Mark David Pullen 9:38
Sure. Um, one of the things that I like to do is throughout my day, even though it can get crazy, you know, a lot of people’s jobs can get crazy. I like to seek quiet moments. You know, there are pauses, you know, there are breaks in the day where you can kind of shift in autopilot, and you can keep going and charging ahead, but your, you know, your body’s doing the work your brain is allowed to wanderer, and I really, it’s in those quiet moments that God speaks to me and that we can have that time to just kind of sit. And, you know, be inspired. You know, he can really speak things into your heart and into your mind in those moments. And that’s, that’s one of the biggest things that I tried to do is just seek after those quiet moments.

Paige C. Clark 10:19
Yeah, I heard something one time, and I was like, like, it just has resonated with me so much. And it says, like, if you work with your hands, rest with your mind, if you work with your mind, rest with your hands. Absolutely. And that has been like, super, I like life-giving, but like, also, like freeing from like guilt and shame. For me specifically, because I’m like, on my computer all day, I work a desk job. Like, when I get to my weekend, and when I like to have, you know, a Sabbath, or I’m resting and spending time kind of refilling my tank with God and all that good stuff. You know, I want to go outside, and I want to work in my garden like I want to draw, and I want to paint and things like that, where, you know, it’s not restful, and kind of the typical sense, but I work with my brain to rest with my hands. Absolutely. Do you feel like that’s true for you? And, like, how do you guys either find your weekly days of rest? Or if you guys observe Sabbath or anything like that?

Mark David Pullen 11:24
Oh, absolutely, I think I think we do a good job of that of trying to take off, take the hat off when we can, and, you know, letting life, I guess, kind of fall into place around us, you know, just kind of take the hat off, take that deep breath and say, Okay, let’s it’s time to downshift for the day time to downshift and just kind of move forward at a much slower easier pace. Absolutely.

Paige C. Clark 11:48
Yeah. And, and we talked, you talked a little bit, kind of like, before we hit record about kind of the stereotypes around blue-collar workers and, and faith and God and like, what that looks like, and all that good stuff, can you talk about that a little bit more?

Mark David Pullen 12:10
Sure. So, you know, I try to work with dignity; you know, I work in an environment where you can always be loud and robust about your faith. So I try to work, I try to be diligent, and I try to work, you know, with dignity; I would like to, even if I can’t talk about it, I would like people to be able to see Christ through my actions, you know, and I would like for them to look at me and know, there’s something different, and I would like them to be able to, you know, maybe if we have a second, you know, they can quietly approach me and asked, you know, and then we can talk but, you know, not everybody has the ability to talk openly, you know, in their workplace or be, you know, vibrant with their faith. And, you know, so in those environments, there are still ways to exhibit the love of Christ. And you can do that through your actions, and you know, what they will they’ll know what’s buyers? Love? Absolutely.

Paige C. Clark 13:04
Yeah. And what, in what ways has that kind of, like, played out in your life and, working with, like, what unique challenges? Do people like in your industry or, you know, another type of, I don’t want to say blue collar, but I’m using your own words, blue-collar workers, like what you need because I’m, I’m foreign to kind of that environment, what kind of what unique issues do you guys kind of face when it comes to practicing your faith in walking it out with God? And what does that look like? What is the solution look like? If anything at all,

Mark David Pullen 13:41
You know, it’s there’s days when you’re stuck in a truck with somebody, and you know, you can, you know, these guys are my family 40 hours a week, you know, that’s the way I look at it like I see them pretty much if you factor in time, I see them more than I see my family. So you know, it’s important to cultivate relationships with these with the people you work with, it’s important to, you know, nurture those relationships, because they are, though you see them frequently, you know, five days a week, let’s face it, if you don’t work overtime, five days a week, eight hours a day, you know, and they’re people too you know, they have things going on in their lives that, you know, they need help with, they need to talk to and why not be that person, you know if you have the opportunity, then you can be that ear, you know, I mean, you can shed light on to what they’re dealing with, maybe you can’t maybe you can just be listening here. But that’s the way I look at it is that they’re they are my family for 40 hours a week. So I try to cultivate those relationships. I try to nurture those relationships because, you know, I don’t mind being that guy. I don’t mind being the guy that people can come to, and people can talk to, you know, that’s, I think that that’s it’s an important role, and I think every workplace has that person, so I don’t mind if I am that person and I could be totally wrong. Person. I don’t mind being that guy.

Paige C. Clark 15:05
Yeah, yeah. And I think it, like, opens up the opportunity for maybe, like, not at the moment, you know, when you’re telling Jesus to people, but I think what it does is it like puts your foot in the door so that so when they have a situation that they might need support in whether it’s through prayer or, you know, discipleship or whatever it is that they know that like you’re a safe person to go to. And

Mark David Pullen 15:35
That Lily and I’ve had, I’ve had instances where they’ve, hey, you’re a church guy, you know, this is going on Ken, can you just I don’t want to pray with you. But can you say a prayer and say yes, absolutely? And then to be able to explain to them that you know what? Prayer and God are not necessarily a Get Out of Jail Free card? You right? Just because I’m willing to pray for you like, the response you get may not be the one you want. Yeah. And then to be able to explain to them, you know, a little more about, you know, how it works. And that, you know, sometimes the answer we get may not be the one we want, but it might be the one we need. And that’s not always hard. They’re not always an easy pill to swallow for somebody. But, you know, that’s I’ve absolutely had those instances where things like that have happened. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 16:24
yeah. And so, like, in what ways? Do you like, let people know your church guy, because I know some people who are like, Oh, I have, like, across to my cubicle, okay, you don’t have a cubicle. Or I’m assuming you don’t have a cubicle if you’re, you know, working around in your truck and on the different campuses and whatnot. So, you know, what does that look like for you?

Mark David Pullen 16:49
Well, I, you know, I do try to have that quiet faith, but when the opportunity does present itself, you know, the guys that I work with, they know that I go to church, you know, they know that I’m a Christian, they know that I believe in God. Because although we’re not allowed, necessarily, you know, we can’t be open about it. But you know, if you broach the subject, like, Hey, you started this, I did, you know, so I can kind of, I can write my foot in that door, too. So you know, the guys I work with, they know, because I’ve told them, you know, I’m like, yeah, we’ll absolutely, you know, if there’s anything we can do, we’ll be in prayer for you and their wives like, well, because I believe that prayer is a wonderful thing. Yeah. And that’s, that’s how they know is that although I do try to live that quiet faith at work, I’m also, if you open the door, I’m going to let you know.

Paige C. Clark 17:37
I love that too. Because, you know, sometimes it’s just like, you crack the door open a little bit, I like swung it open through both doors. And when you say, like, you’re kind of not allowed to, I think I get what you mean. But are you speaking from, like, in terms of like, a managerial position, and like, these people who you work with are kind of like, under you as, like, as your employees? Or is it more so like? Like, like a work culture? Or is it like an actual rule?

Mark David Pullen 18:13
No, it’s not a rule. Okay, more like work culture, I would say, you know, and as Christians, we’re not the most popular to begin with. Right, that makes any sense? Oh, yeah. You know, there’s a lot of things that are tolerated, I believe, today, and being a Christian isn’t one of them. Right. So. Really, it’s this kind of a work culture thing, I believe.

Paige C. Clark 18:42
Gotcha. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. Because I mean, and, and you don’t have to divulge this, but I know, especially like working in public school systems. You know, that also gets on really shaky territory. And I’m sure your wife has, you know, things to speak to in her interaction with, like, the kids on the campus and whatnot, of where it gets into, like, some real, sticky situations in terms of like navigating it from a Christian perspective.

Mark David Pullen 19:15
Absolutely. And she is actually she’s the same way she would tell you that, you know, she will, you know, she has the cross on her Bible. She has the teacher’s prayer on her Bible or on her desk, I’m sorry, on her desk. And she can’t, you know, if a child is like, Hey, what’s up with that? She can talk about it, but if they don’t, she can just say like, Hey, see this, you need to be looking into this. Like, it’s just one of those. Right? If they broach the subject, she can see you can go into a little bit of detail, but she can’t, you know. Yeah. And I mean, things, I guess,

Paige C. Clark 19:51
also, if the situation was reversed in terms of, like, you know, if a teacher was a Satanist or something, I wouldn’t want right them to be putting that on my kid, not saying that Christian is equivalent to see. But in terms of belief systems, if someone had a different belief system that I might not want my kids to expose to, you know, I wouldn’t want them to freely give that information to my kids; if I had kids, I’d assume. But on the other side of that, too, I think there’s also, like, the reason, why I asked about, like, the managerial stuff, is because, like, sometimes that can also influence your kind of interactions with not subordinates, but people who report up to you. I just got back from a conference in San Diego with the gal who, the week prior to the conference, was no longer my direct report; she got moved laterally to me. And so when we went to San Diego, I was like, No, we’re gonna have fun, like, I don’t have a page, like, I get to be like coworker page, and we get to have fun like that. And so that’s why I was asking that question. Because I’m like, yeah, there is like a little bit of complication, I guess, when you have like a team of people reporting up to you, and you are held to not your own standards, but like, also like company and like, organizational standards as well. Absolutely. Yeah. So um, when it comes to, like, practicing your faith, like, what is one of the biggest struggles that you have?

Mark David Pullen 21:37
My biggest struggle, to be quite honest, is putting God in a box. You know, I work eight hours a day, five days a week. The last thing I want to do by that, I find myself doing more often than not, putting God in that box and then checking him off after church on Sunday, like, okay, you know, crossing them off. Like, is one more thing off the list? Okay, check the box. We did it. You know, and that’s why we believe I believe that would be my biggest struggle. Yeah, I’m definitely working on it.

Paige C. Clark 22:10
Yeah. And are you talking more in terms of just, like, your interaction with him because, like, I get like church on Sunday and then like, checkoff, but also like, when people talk about like putting God in a box, it’s like, limiting beliefs about God and like, what he is able and capable of doing in your life?

Mark David Pullen 22:28
Yeah, try not to think of it like that because I can look at what he’s done for me, and I can see how he’s guided my footsteps to where I am. Yeah. I would have to say, mainly, for the church thing on Saturday, you know, making it, you know, and does it, you know, are there days where my prayers at night aren’t as strong as they could be? Are they a little bit faster? Absolutely. But, you know, as I said, that’s something that I’m trying to work on. Is that not putting him in that box? You know, because, as I said, I have seen where I’ve been, where, what I’ve come from, like, where he’s guided my footsteps? And he deserves better than that.

Paige C. Clark 23:10
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I also think too, like it, it limits gods, you know, doesn’t limit God, but it limits us to be able to be used by God in other areas of our life. Absolutely. And I think too, like we, when we just kind of use it as like a checklist item, it becomes obligatory rather than a relationship.

Mark David Pullen 23:43
Absolutely. And that’s, and you know, it’s days like that when the 50-minute ride to church seems to take 100 minutes, and then the 45-minute sermon takes 90 minutes. And it’s, and it’s usually before the day is over that I’m, you know, kicking myself going like, okay, you know why that was right. And it was because, you know, my up and down wasn’t right, you know, and I find that when you’re up and down is right, though, you know, your vertical is right, your horizontal, you know, everything else falls into place.

Paige C. Clark 24:14
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, like one of the things I like, I really want to keep true on this podcast is, is the fact and it’s a hard question to ask because I’m like putting people on blast like hey, like, where do you suck in life? Because we all have those areas. I wouldn’t put it. I’m not going to tell you that you suck, Mark. But we all have those. We are all. We all fall short. And we all have weaknesses. And so I always just like to roll that one in there because I feel like it is so important to talk about because, you know, when I was recording with another couple this week, I asked him, you know, like, what’s your what’s, Is your daily life look like? And with your walk with God, he’s like, do you want the ideal answer? Or do you want the real answer? I’m like, No, I want the real answer. I have an ideal answer my ideal. Yeah, I totally wake up every single morning; I, you know, read Scripture, I have my quiet time for an hour and a half, and then I go to the gym, right? Like, that does not happen before I sign into work every day. The real reason is that I listen to Christian music in my car, and I pray to God before bed on a daily basis; the majority of the time, that’s what it looks like. And so I feel like when we’re able to kind of humanize, you know, the Jesus experience, I

Mark David Pullen 25:41
Guess, absolutely.

Paige C. Clark 25:44
It feels more approachable to Yes, absolutely. And so, you know, when you’re, when you’re going on that drive, and you know, you’re, you’re going to church, and sometimes, like, I mean, if you want to be like, not legalistic about it, but it like in my mind, if I was like, if I was you, I’d be like, okay, 15 minutes or 15 minutes back, plus, like, a 45-minute sermon plus, like, you know, 20-minute worship, okay, that’s like, three, four hours right there.

Mark David Pullen 26:15
With God, right, and then see, but then there’s the, there’s the planning side, too. So you’re doing that math, as opposed to with a six-year-old and a four-year-old, like, okay, they’re gonna buckled in for 50 minutes, we’re gonna get out, they have to sit quietly in church for 45, then when we leave the happy buckled back in for 15 minutes, so we get them home, they’re just going to be complete and total animals by the neck, because of all that pent up energy. So

Paige C. Clark 26:40
that’s where you have to find, like, I don’t know, if they have a mount there, but like, like a trampoline park that’s like, nearby the church. And then, after church, you just let them go. And then, on the way home, they’re quiet little angels in the backseat?

Mark David Pullen 26:56
I will have to look for something like that.

Paige C. Clark 27:00
That’s what I would do.

Mark David Pullen 27:01
That’s true, buddy.

Paige C. Clark 27:04
Um, is there something that you do or that you see other people do in your life? Or even, like, on TV, podcast, books, whatever, that helps people manage their work and faith like, and what would that be?

Mark David Pullen 27:25
That’s a good one. Um, you know, I think, to be totally honest, I think my mom does a pretty good job. You know, telling you the truth. And, well, yes, it tells me the truth. And, you know, she works for the district where I work; she’s not necessarily as reserved as I am, you know, whereas I wait for that door to creak open a good bit before I took my foot in my mom, like, you just got to turn the handle, and my mom’s kicking down the door, you know, she’s got the knob on the other side, and she’s ripping the door open. You know, I’m not as seasoned as she is. But that’s one of those things that that boldness for Christ that I’m definitely I, I would encourage people to seek after you know what, yeah, that’s one thing that you can be 100% sure it is Christ. Like, be a little bold in that; let’s have a little boldness in our faith? Yeah.

Paige C. Clark 28:30
And what do you think are some of the I mean, there’s no right answer, and I don’t know the answer, either. But what are you? What do you think? Some of the reasons why Christians are maybe more reserved in that boldness.

Mark David Pullen 28:43
You know, what if, as I said earlier, we’re not the world’s most favorite people right now? Right, you know, then we’re really cool people. I don’t understand. But I don’t necessarily know whether it’s fear of ridicule or stepping on toes. But you know, I think that’s, I think we need to get better about that. I think we need to be bold and less worried about what the opinions are because they don’t care about ours. Not saying that that’s the right thing. You know, you don’t care about us; we don’t care about you. But you know, if they have the privilege to be bold about their opinions, we need to be bold about ours as well. Yeah, I think I think that can be a two-way street.

Paige C. Clark 29:30
Yeah, my pastor at my church, he calls it a throat punch. And it’s saying the right thing at the right time in the right way. Absolutely. Where like, where the that’s where the boldness comes out of like, I’m going to tell you, you know, a truth, and it’s like, gonna come out. It’s like, I’m not gonna be mean about it. I’m not gonna say it in the worst way possible, but I’m still gonna tell the truth, and I’m gonna say it to you when you need it. I hear it in the way you need to hear it.

Mark David Pullen 30:03
Right. And I, you know, I believe that there’s also to go along with that is, you know, speaking the truth in love. You know, if it offends you with your bicycle to truth and love and it still offends you, that’s kind of a huge problem because I come at you, let come at you with my hands up right away saying like, hey, look, your brother or sister like, this is what I see. This is how I can help. And if you still get offended, I think that’s your problem at that point.

Paige C. Clark 30:30
Yeah. Yeah. Because there’s something stirring that there’s something when there’s a fence taken. There’s something stirring internally that is two opposing forces. You know, it’s not just one opposing force; there’s something pushing back against it. So yeah, that’s completely true and completely right. And, and I think, too, when it comes to, you know, speaking, the truth and love, I think that a lot of the times, you know, you see it a lot now, where people like you just need to love, you just need to love. I’m like, Okay, if you’re walking across a bridge, and you’re about to fall off, I’m going to tell you that you’re about to fall off, no matter how much you like walking across that bridge. Right? And that’s what love is to me, you know, and I think that a lot of the times we think is like, No, you want to walk across the bridge. Go ahead; I’m gonna let you do what you want to do. Right? So walk across the bridge when rarely, the love part was stopping them. And I always like to say like, if you always have, there’s, I don’t know if it’s a saying or something. But it’s like, if you have the best secret of the world in the world, like, you know, the best thing in the world. Don’t you want to tell the entire world about it? You don’t want to keep it to yourself?

Mark David Pullen 31:50
Absolutely. 100%?

Paige C. Clark 31:53
Yeah, that’s awesome. And yeah, I think too, like, other people can be bold; we can be bold, as well. And I think that I think there’s a lot of fear, especially in, like, I don’t even know if you want to call it Kancil culture or like, even the fact that like, everyone’s phones are like, around nowadays, like, yes. The fact that we feel like we can always be put on blast and that like, you know, getting fired from your job is like, really, it’s very close. Like, it’s, I feel like,

Mark David Pullen 32:26
It’s absolutely closer to us.

Paige C. Clark 32:28
now than it has ever been, especially as Christians, because one thing was taken out of context. That’s all if you’re done.

Mark David Pullen 32:36
And you know, and you then you think, like, Okay, well, you know, all right, it’s just me, but it’s not just you, you know, what happens to your family, you know, things like that like you run that risk these days. Because nothing you say is secret anymore. Not that you can’t say anything in private anymore. Everything. Yeah, we’ll dig deep enough or dig hard enough is public knowledge. Yeah,

Paige C. Clark 32:58
yeah. And I’d probably pull the clip and put it somewhere in this episode if I can find it. But there’s a there’s like a sheriff’s office out here. And he likes the speed traps. And like, that’s like what he does, and they film it, and they make like a, like a kind of, you know, reality TV show out of it just on Facebook every week for the Pinellas County Sheriffs. And there was this guy, and he like, you know, approached a car, and the kid in the car was just like giving him lip and like Sass and back and everything. And then the guy said, you know, if you don’t give me your ID, then I’m gonna have to pull you out this car because, you know, failure to identify as an arrestable offense. And so the kid whips out his cell phone and starts recording it. And then he goes, can you say that for me one more time? And he says, yep. And I’m like, just gave the spiel. Again, I need your identification. And he goes, okay, yeah, here it is. And, like, pulls it out. And he hands it to him. And afterward, the sheriff was like, Did you see that? Like, the interaction up to the point where he started recording was so, like, nasty on the kid’s side. And then, once he started recording, he became the perfect person all over again.

Mark David Pullen 34:17
Well, it’s so funny because before I went to work for the school, I worked for a local municipality, and I was building maintenance for the Sheriff’s Department. So I got to know a lot of the guys, and I was there when they were being fitted for their body cams. And of the gentlemen who I cultivated a good relationship with, a good friend of mine, Now I would say, we have since retired, but I remember he was telling me that he rolled up on a vehicle one night and he got to the window to ask for the license and registration and they had the camera out already. They had their phone out. And he waved and pointed at him and said Now you wave to mine. And he was like; it was shocking how quickly the phone went down at that point. rapport,

Paige C. Clark 35:00
yeah, but anyways, I’ll have to find that clip because it is really funny, but all that to say, you know, we’re in this world where we’re scared to step out and boldness in so much the fact, as you mentioned, at once one we could be hated, you know people could not like us I always joke I come from a PR and communications background, I always joke that Christians need a really good PR campaign because you’re 100% right, most people don’t like us, for whatever reason. And on the other side, we’re scared that kind of that vitriol toll towards us is going to turn against us and kind of threaten us in a way that is either taking things out of context or, you know, things set at the right time or at the wrong time in the wrong way. Or even so much. So, where we are, we are all sinners, and we will continue to sin. For example, if you have a moment of anger, and that is what is decided to be, you know, pulled out of the situation versus something else. You know, I feel like those are all risks that we run not only in our everyday life but especially in our workplaces.

Mark David Pullen 36:27
Absolutely. 100%.

Paige C. Clark 36:30
So, what, what is the like spiritual discipline that is most difficult to kind of apply to your life? You talked a little bit about, like, church; I feel like that’s like a logistics problem. But like, like something, something that uniquely applies to you in working, you know, eight hour day, 40 days, we are sorry, 40 hour day, oh my gosh, 40 hour week, working five times, oh, my gosh, working a 40 hour week, let’s just leave you you go, I have to say I’m in working that, like what is a discipline that you think like many other people in your situation would also kind of face.

Mark David Pullen 37:23
I would definitely have to say starting the day with devotions. You know, my feet hit the ground. I would not quit running in the morning. But I’d like to think I have decent luck with my stuff. You know, I haven’t slept in six years, I’m looking to add. I mean, and that’s it. And so, my day starts, and then immediately after that, it’s the pitter-patter of little feet. And it’s okay. You know, mom’s up, and she’s packing lunches. I’m up, you know, we’re getting kids ready, we’re getting showered, we’re getting cleaned, like, and we’ve got, you know, 45 minutes before we have to be out the door to get the youngest to freaking. So, you know, it’s that. It’s definitely the devotions because it doesn’t really matter. What time I get up, what time we get up, because it seems that once we’re up, it’s not much longer after that, that the day has started. Because the kids hear us up there up, you know, and then the day has just started 15 minutes earlier, you know? Yeah, so I definitely would definitely be starting my day with devotions down.

Paige C. Clark 38:31
Yeah. And I think too, like, I know, there’s like, it doesn’t matter when you get that time with God. But I think there’s something especially unique about having it in the morning. Not only does it like, in terms of not only does it stretch that discipline in you in terms of, you know, getting in Scripture, communing with God. But also, it helps you set your brain and your heart on the right trajectory for the day,

Mark David Pullen 39:02
It starts your day, starts your day, and Absolutely, I agree with that. 100%. You know, there’s, I’ve done them in the morning, and I’ve done them at night, and there’s just, there’s a difference between going to bed on it versus waking up with it and waking up with it. It’s exactly that you’re getting your head and your heart rate together first thing in the morning. And you know, you might still have a crazy day, but you started it right. Yeah. You started it with your head and your heart going in the right direction. And, you know, that’s that, you know, I absolutely agree 100%

Paige C. Clark 39:40
I feel that way about going to the gym, especially since I know some people love to work out in the evenings. I do not because, guess what? If it gets to evening and I haven’t worked out, I’m not gonna work out. Exactly, exactly. And so that also is like another scapegoat for me of like if I didn’t spend my time with God in the morning first thing, and then it’s also like there’s like you know, you can almost hyper spiritualize it of like, oh, like you’re putting God first there’s nothing else that matters nothing else but comes before him. Yes, that is still all true. But there’s also the fact of, like, Hey, if you don’t do it, you’re probably not going to if your personality is anything like mine. Absolutely.

Mark David Pullen 40:19
I agree. I do. I totally understand that.

Paige C. Clark 40:23
Because, like, a little kiddo might need to, like, bonk his head and needs to go get stitches, God forbid. But, like, you don’t know what’s going to happen the rest of the day. So just like, started off with some Jesus?

Mark David Pullen 40:37
Yes, yes.

Paige C. Clark 40:39
Awesome, Mark. Well, this has been such an amazing conversation; I always like to finish off our episodes with one thing listeners who are listening because that’s what listeners do. One thing that they can do to implement a faith-building discipline, or practice into their life, this week, today, tomorrow, anything that they might be able to do to help them kind of grow their faith, move closer to God, and make that boldness a little bit easier.

Mark David Pullen 41:10
Door. And as you know, I think I said already, just seek those quiet moments. There are plenty of times throughout the day, I, you know, I’m fairly certain everybody has those moments, just where they can go on autopilot, and then just everything else melts at random, and then you can have that quiet one on one time with God. You know, and for me, in particular, I can tell you that those moments occur more often than not at work. You know, there’s plenty of times where, you know, if my day requires me to be on the mower, you know, I started on the mower at 730 in the morning, my brains on autopilot all day, I know where I’m going, I know what I’m doing. So my mind is free to wander. So why not wander in that direction? You know, wander, wander, and hold hands with God. That’s what I would say seek those quiet moments.

Paige C. Clark 41:55
I love that. I love that. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find you and learn more about you or your book, all that exciting stuff?

Mark David Pullen 42:05
You can find, obviously, through my website; the waist is king.com has a little reach-out section, so you can contact me via email. You can find me on social media, my Instagram and my Pinterest or Mark David Pullin, and Facebook; I am at the real Oasis King.

Paige C. Clark 42:22
Awesome. I’m so excited. And all of those links will be down in the show notes. Thank you so much, Mark, and we’ll catch you guys on the next episode.

Mark David Pullen 42:30
Thanks so much.

Paige C. Clark 42:32
Thanks for joining us. If you liked what you were listening to, make sure you subscribe and hit those five stars, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.